Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Miscellaneous and Off Topic Forums > Off Topic Discussions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Brew Master
 
cabmando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Delphos Ohio
Posts: 13,990
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc View Post
Yes the old is high efficiency that exhausts via a PVC pipe . Per online BTU calculators I an in zone 2 with a suggestion of 35 - 40 BTU per square foot . So the math does suggest a 60K at 96 percent efficiency is a better match . You may be right about him sizing based on current furnace size . Thanks for bringing it up I will ask follow up questions .

However I did tell him to add the runs in the basement for future room additions . Those rooms would add at least another 260 sf which brings the total to 1886 . Take 1886 x 40 BTU and you get 75,440 suggested furnace size . The online estimators state it is ok to over size by 10 percent so the 80K is in the ballpark . I am just smart enough to be dangerous 😜
Basements don't take much to heat or cool typically.

__________________
Nick
Old 01-14-2020, 04:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #41 (permalink)
Registered User
 
billybek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 6,393
Garage
Some of the Daikin propaganda suggests that their inverter heat pumps can make decent heat down to -4 deg F.
Not sure about the other manufacturers.
__________________
Bill K.
"I started out with nothin and I still got most of it left...."
83 911 SC Guards Red (now gone)
And I sold a bunch of parts I hadn't installed yet.
Old 01-14-2020, 05:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
canna change law physics
 
red-beard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Houston, Tejas
Posts: 38,654
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by billybek View Post
Some of the Daikin propaganda suggests that their inverter heat pumps can make decent heat down to -4 deg F.
Not sure about the other manufacturers.
The thermodynamics say otherwise.

Cooling from 100F to 75F, the delta is 25F. To drive the energy you have to compress the Freon to a high temp and then cool it.

There is a slight gain on driving heat the other direction, but you will cost a similar amount of energy going from 35 to 65. Going below 35F, the energy cost to heat goes up and generally reaches a point, around 25F, where the energy required to heat is more than the energy to run electric resistance heating.

The inverter AC might be able to do better than electric resistance heating, but I would need to see the actual Coefficient of Performance or EER (Energy Efficiency ratio), not the SEER (Seasonally adjusted Energy Efficiency Ratio) to tell.

SEER takes into account the performance over an entire cooling season, not just peak performance. COP and EER are straight measures.
__________________
James
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the engineer adjusts the sails.- William Arthur Ward (1921-1994)
Red-beard for President, 2020
Old 01-14-2020, 05:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #43 (permalink)
Registered User
 
billybek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 6,393
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
The thermodynamics say otherwise.

Cooling from 100F to 75F, the delta is 25F. To drive the energy you have to compress the Freon to a high temp and then cool it.

There is a slight gain on driving heat the other direction, but you will cost a similar amount of energy going from 35 to 65. Going below 35F, the energy cost to heat goes up and generally reaches a point, around 25F, where the energy required to heat is more than the energy to run electric resistance heating.

The inverter AC might be able to do better than electric resistance heating, but I would need to see the actual Coefficient of Performance or EER (Energy Efficiency ratio), not the SEER (Seasonally adjusted Energy Efficiency Ratio) to tell.

SEER takes into account the performance over an entire cooling season, not just peak performance. COP and EER are straight measures.
Like I said, suggests. I would have to see it in operation and get pressures and temperatures to believe it. One of their sales guys was at the school a while back and was saying he was installing one of these on a new home he was having built.

I doubt the mountains in Georgia see that kind of cold (-4 deg F) for very long if ever...
-30 deg C here this morning. A bit past the balance point for a heat pump system. My York H/E two stage nat gas furnace still keeps up on low stage except for the morning warm up period.
__________________
Bill K.
"I started out with nothin and I still got most of it left...."
83 911 SC Guards Red (now gone)
And I sold a bunch of parts I hadn't installed yet.
Old 01-14-2020, 07:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #44 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rfuerst911sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dahlonega , Georgia
Posts: 7,683
In the ten years I have lived in Georgia I have never seen the temps below about 25 degrees . Since completing my two car man cave garage with a Mitsubishi 24K mini split I am always amazed by how good the heat performance is when the outside temps are in the 20's .

What I don't know is if that same excellent performance if it carries over to an inverter heat pump running through duct work ? And I do have concerns regarding any repairs being $$$ . That's why I am leaning towards the dual fuel .
Old 01-14-2020, 08:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #45 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rfuerst911sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dahlonega , Georgia
Posts: 7,683
Funny you guys mentioned Daikin , this morning I had another HVAC company to the house and they are a Daikin installer . They are rolling out in the next week or so a dual fuel inverter system . In the past they offered an inverter AC with a stand alone furnace for heat .

They are now going to offer a variable speed inverter heat pump ( outside unit ) matched to a dual fuel furnace . I was quoted a 17 SEER heat pump with a 40K dual fuel LP furnace and some fancy thermostat installed for $8400.00 . They would utilize existing duct work . The warranty is 12 years parts and labor .

This sounds like a perfect solution as you get all the benefits of the inverter heat pump and have gas back up vs. electric heat strips . For our climate they said they would set it up for a balance point of 17 degrees . That means very little propane usage but there if needed . Thoughts ?
Old 01-15-2020, 10:35 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #46 (permalink)
canna change law physics
 
red-beard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Houston, Tejas
Posts: 38,654
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc View Post
Funny you guys mentioned Daikin , this morning I had another HVAC company to the house and they are a Daikin installer . They are rolling out in the next week or so a dual fuel inverter system . In the past they offered an inverter AC with a stand alone furnace for heat .

They are now going to offer a variable speed inverter heat pump ( outside unit ) matched to a dual fuel furnace . I was quoted a 17 SEER heat pump with a 40K dual fuel LP furnace and some fancy thermostat installed for $8400.00 . They would utilize existing duct work . The warranty is 12 years parts and labor .

This sounds like a perfect solution as you get all the benefits of the inverter heat pump and have gas back up vs. electric heat strips . For our climate they said they would set it up for a balance point of 17 degrees . That means very little propane usage but there if needed . Thoughts ?
Sounds like a winner to me. If you had natural gas, I would suggest not even bothering with the heat pump. But I know LP/Propane is quite a bit more expensive.
__________________
James
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the engineer adjusts the sails.- William Arthur Ward (1921-1994)
Red-beard for President, 2020
Old 01-15-2020, 11:06 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #47 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rfuerst911sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dahlonega , Georgia
Posts: 7,683
^^^ Yeah natural gas would change the entire scope but it's not available where I live . I have lived in this house two years , and we have a 500 gallon LP tank . I have filled it twice both times at the " summer rate " . The summer rate is cheaper , don't remember the price per gallon on the first fill but the one this past summer was 1.29 a gallon . With the old 10 SEER heat pump with dual fuel furnace we only had to fill 100 gallons to be at 80 % fill which is the most your supposed to put in .

So now we're looking at going to 17 SEER inverter variable speed heat pump with LP dual fuel furnace which is rated at 96 % efficiency . In theory the heat pump will be on much longer and the LP will be used much less . And because the way an inverter style works it will consume much less electricity than I was , our worst electric bill was about $220.00 .

In a perfect world I could just get by on inverter and not have to have an LP furnace at all , but to date no one has stated they feel that is a wise decision . I am tired of researching this to death and just want to pull the trigger . I will think about all the options presented and make a decision soon .
__________________
2002 Boxster S . Arctic silver + black top/int. Jake Raby 3.6 SS engine " the beast ". GT3 front bumper, GT3 side skirts and GT3 TEK rear diffuser.
Old 01-15-2020, 01:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #48 (permalink)
Brew Master
 
cabmando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Delphos Ohio
Posts: 13,990
Garage
I don't like keeping the existing duct. Flex duct has more static pressure typically. The system is only as efficient as the ductwork. The Carrier Infinity system can overcome poor duct design but at the expense of efficiency. I doubt other systems are any different. I'd bet if you ask the person who quoted you the system if they'll guarantee 17 SEER using your current ductwork, they'd tell you "no".
__________________
Nick

Last edited by cabmando; 01-15-2020 at 04:46 PM..
Old 01-15-2020, 03:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #49 (permalink)
Registered User
 
billybek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 6,393
Garage
I will second what Nick has said.
Will you develop the basement space?
Getting some hard duct run while the basement is wide open will pay off in spades.
It is really not all that expensive to do just the duct work.
Talk to the sales guy again and see if they can work the price a bit to include the sheet metal work.
__________________
Bill K.
"I started out with nothin and I still got most of it left...."
83 911 SC Guards Red (now gone)
And I sold a bunch of parts I hadn't installed yet.
Old 01-15-2020, 04:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #50 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rfuerst911sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dahlonega , Georgia
Posts: 7,683
Quote:
Originally Posted by billybek View Post
I will second what Nick has said.
Will you develop the basement space?
Getting some hard duct run while the basement is wide open will pay off in spades.
It is really not all that expensive to do just the duct work.
Talk to the sales guy again and see if they can work the price a bit to include the sheet metal work.
I asked about all metal duct work and they stated they use existing to keep price down . As a matter of fact I gave him the price from the other installer including metal duct work and he said no way . So after he left I asked the other installer about the metal duct work . He stated his quote includes a metal trunk but all flex pipe from there to the registers . Apparently down here in the South they like this flex stuff .
Old 01-15-2020, 05:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #51 (permalink)
Registered User
 
billybek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 6,393
Garage
When I was renovating the house, I gutted the basement to be able to run new ductwork.
I had found a guy that would work on the side and paid him cash for that part of the job.
New trunk, take offs, balance dampers and hard pipe to the registers.
He also ran new returns from all the bedrooms to come up to current (at the time) code.

I had wanted to change the aspect ratio of the ductwork to get more head height in the basement. Was worth every penny I paid for it.

The sheetmetal installer didn't foil tape the seams, I did. That is time consuming but is very worthwhile.
__________________
Bill K.
"I started out with nothin and I still got most of it left...."
83 911 SC Guards Red (now gone)
And I sold a bunch of parts I hadn't installed yet.
Old 01-15-2020, 05:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #52 (permalink)
 
Brew Master
 
cabmando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Delphos Ohio
Posts: 13,990
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc View Post
I asked about all metal duct work and they stated they use existing to keep price down . As a matter of fact I gave him the price from the other installer including metal duct work and he said no way . So after he left I asked the other installer about the metal duct work . He stated his quote includes a metal trunk but all flex pipe from there to the registers . Apparently down here in the South they like this flex stuff .
Get rid of all flex. It's a thing everywhere for lazy installers. Seriously. It's used because it is fast. Pipe comes in 5 foot sections so it takes a bit more time to install because you've got some cutting and fitting to do when you get to the register boot. Most flex duct isn't supported properly and as I pointed out causes restriction in the system. There's no reason beyond being lazy to use it in a basement. In a crawlspace where you'd be concerned with heat loss due to the duct running in unconditioned space it makes sense... sort of.
All things being equal I still like the first quote with new main trunk. A main trunk with flex pipe still has more air restriction and likely isn't sized properly to begin with.
__________________
Nick
Old 01-16-2020, 04:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #53 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rfuerst911sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dahlonega , Georgia
Posts: 7,683
Good feedback on flex vs metal duct , I will go back and ask at least two of the contractors estimate ALL to be metal from trunk to registers .
Old 01-16-2020, 04:45 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #54 (permalink)
Brew Master
 
cabmando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Delphos Ohio
Posts: 13,990
Garage
Just for your own info, look into what flex duct is. The inside of the flex duct will look a lot like dryer vent. It typically comes in a 25' box or bag. Most installers don't fully extend the duct before it's installed. Like I said, it makes for a quick install but generally only because it's not supported properly when installed.
__________________
Nick
Old 01-16-2020, 05:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #55 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rfuerst911sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dahlonega , Georgia
Posts: 7,683
Spoke with contractor that gave the quote of $7800.00 for dual fuel and metal trunk . Without coming back and measuring everything to get an exact price he told me figure at least $125.00 per run . I have 12 runs no way I am paying 1500.00 just for duct work . It has worked fine since 1996 when it was installed , doesn't have any visible cuts/leaks so I am done talking duct work 😁

I am going to just mull this over through the weekend and pull the trigger next week . Thanks to everyone that gave advice it has helped me be better informed .
Old 01-16-2020, 02:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #56 (permalink)
Brew Master
 
cabmando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Delphos Ohio
Posts: 13,990
Garage
Sheesus that's obscene!! Sounds like someone just doesn't wanna do it. I used to call it a "nuisance fee". If it was something I really didn't want to do, I'd make the number so terrible the owner would just say "never mind"

If they're primarily straight runs, figure 10 maybe 15 minutes per run. Install requires putting two or three pieces together and hanging with three straps. Measure from the back of crimps to the inside of the boot, cut the piece, put crimp end in boot and snap the pipe together. It's really not that hard. It's a shame. His price was right on the new system with new trunk and he'll spend about 5 minutes per run just putting a collar in the flex to connect it to the trunk.
__________________
Nick

Last edited by cabmando; 01-16-2020 at 02:50 PM..
Old 01-16-2020, 02:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #57 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rfuerst911sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dahlonega , Georgia
Posts: 7,683
Maybe at some time after the HVAC install I can replace one by one on my own . Or maybe the flex will be determined good enough
__________________
2002 Boxster S . Arctic silver + black top/int. Jake Raby 3.6 SS engine " the beast ". GT3 front bumper, GT3 side skirts and GT3 TEK rear diffuser.
Old 01-17-2020, 03:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #58 (permalink)
Brew Master
 
cabmando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Delphos Ohio
Posts: 13,990
Garage
If you have the time and want to save a little money, ask if you can assist by taking down the old runs and help installing the new. If it's a smaller contractor they might be open to that. It's really not a difficult job to put up the new pipe.
__________________
Nick
Old 01-17-2020, 04:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #59 (permalink)
Registered User
 
rfuerst911sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dahlonega , Georgia
Posts: 7,683
^^^ Unfortunately I don't have the spare time at the moment . Even though I am retired I have a part time job that consumes two days a week . I am currently restoring our deck ( very large ) , building a 24x24 garage , maintaining three vehicles , two garden tractors and a boat . I also have a truck camper waiting for restoration . I only want to work so hard in retirement . Once I pick which HVAC unit/company to go with they will be in/out in one to two days . The system will be up and running and done .

In my future spare time ( when ever that is ) I might entertain removing one by one a flex duct and replace with metal . I assume ( ??? ) that the same size metal replaces a same sized flex ? So if the flex is 8 " or 6 " you replace with the same size metal ? I think I will ask the installers to just tape seal to the metal trunk and not coat with duct sealer . That will make it much easier for me to do my thing in the future . And by me doing it one duct at a time I can control when I have to move all the crap in the basement for access

__________________
2002 Boxster S . Arctic silver + black top/int. Jake Raby 3.6 SS engine " the beast ". GT3 front bumper, GT3 side skirts and GT3 TEK rear diffuser.
Old 01-17-2020, 05:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #60 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:48 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2020 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.