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Brew Master
 
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Most flex duct has the size on the outer lining and yeah. 5,6,7,8 flex same as 5,6,7,8 metal pipe.

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Old 01-17-2020, 10:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc View Post
In the ten years I have lived in Georgia I have never seen the temps below about 25 degrees.
You may want to double check that... I'm in Alpharetta and we're usually in the teens for at least a week or so every year.

https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/USA/GA/Atlanta/extreme-annual-atlanta-low-temperature.php
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Old 01-17-2020, 07:54 PM
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^^^ In the 8 years I lived in Marietta and the 2 years I have lived in Dahlonega I haven't seen anything below about 23 . Yes on very rare occasions it might get colder but not enough to affect the sizing of an HVAC system .
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Old 01-18-2020, 03:15 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #63 (permalink)
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Today I am going to contact the Daikin dealer for some follow up questions , I want to confirm the 12 year labor warranty and ask why they quoted a 40K furnace for the inverter heat pump but a 80K furnace for the more traditional dual fuel heat pump . That doesn't make sense to me Yesterday I went out to my man cave in the morning , it was 25 degrees out but toasty warm in the cave and I only have the Mitsubishi mini split set at 61 degrees ! That may have convinced me to go with the inverter style heat pump system from Daikin .
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Old 01-20-2020, 03:06 AM
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It is amazing how warm my 35deg F garage feels when it is almost -30 deg F....

Good idea to make sure you are both speaking the same language and get the job done correctly.
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Old 01-20-2020, 05:13 AM
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Spoke to the Daikin dude about furnace size , it is sized per their efficiency software and packaging suggestion . He stated for our 1626 sf house the 40K and inverter would work great. He agreed with the " conventional " heat pumps he would probably suggest a 60K furnace .

Then we talked metal trunk vs fibre board , I let him know that I may replace the flex duct in the future with metal . He suggested to come back and remeasure and calculate sizing/load to get the most efficient trunk . Their design software apparently will spit out the correct size/length/tapers etc. for the trunk . He will then price out a metal trunk vs adapting my current fiber trunk .

He is coming out next Monday in the morning so we'll see what comes of that . And I did clarify the warranty it is 12 years parts and labor for anything on the inside of the heat pump or furnace . Things like condensation pump are not covered. This certainly removes my concerns about repair costs at least for 12 years .
Old 01-20-2020, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc View Post
Spoke to the Daikin dude about furnace size , it is sized per their efficiency software and packaging suggestion . He stated for our 1626 sf house the 40K and inverter would work great. He agreed with the " conventional " heat pumps he would probably suggest a 60K furnace .

Then we talked metal trunk vs fibre board , I let him know that I may replace the flex duct in the future with metal . He suggested to come back and remeasure and calculate sizing/load to get the most efficient trunk . Their design software apparently will spit out the correct size/length/tapers etc. for the trunk . He will then price out a metal trunk vs adapting my current fiber trunk .

He is coming out next Monday in the morning so we'll see what comes of that . And I did clarify the warranty it is 12 years parts and labor for anything on the inside of the heat pump or furnace . Things like condensation pump are not covered. This certainly removes my concerns about repair costs at least for 12 years .
Wait.. you have duct board main trunks? Post of pic of your setup. If you have fiberglass duct board I'd probably keep it unless there are signs of deterioration.
As to why the 40K with the inverter system, My bet would be their using the gas furnace to make up for the loss in heating capacity as the temp drops below the balance point. Basically the gas furnace and the heat pump would be running at the same time if I'm guessing right. My only concern would be, would the furnace alone do the job if the inverter hp goes down. If it got REALLY cold I doubt it would.
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Old 01-20-2020, 05:03 PM
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Cab here are two pics I took this morning , please excuse the basement mess The white PVC pipe in the pic is the exhaust for the furnace . The " box " on the side of the furnace is the intake plenum with the two large round flex ducts , that feeds from a wall cavity to our upstairs dining room and that is where the replaceable filter resides . You can also see the flex ducts coming off the trunk . Visible inspection of the fibre board trunk I don't see any evidence of leaking/cracks/issues but I am no expert . All tape joints/corners are tight with no peeling . Maybe in a perfect world all tape joints on the trunk should have mastic on them ?

If the current trunk is acceptable to reuse and I can save some $$$ I am ok with that Like any project there is a budget to stay within . Two of the quotes I received were going to use the trunk as is and just adapt the new furnace to it . The 3rd quote was going to make a new metal trunk or some kind of hybrid metal/fibre trunk . I have no clue if the quotes were driven just by price to reuse or that they really felt it was " good enough " as is ? Anyway here are the pics would like to hear your comments .



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Old 01-21-2020, 03:27 AM
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Okay... get rid of the main trunk for sure. Looks like one size with no reduction in size. I'd want new supply trunk properly sized and if it was my home, I'd have a return trunk as well to save some ceiling room what looks like 10 or 12" flex for the returns.
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:33 AM
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Hey guys I'm still dicking around with this HVAC purchase . So today the Daikin dude came back and did load calculations . Had some fancy laser measuring device and he loaded all the data into a software program . Then went in the basement and measured all the ducts .

Right off the bat my current furnace is 80K and only needs to be 40K . The AC calculations say 2 ton but he's going to quote 2.5 to be safe . So tomorrow I should have new quotes back , they will be for a conventional dual fuel heat pump two stage with variable blower on the furnace and then the Daikin Fit duel fuel inverter style .

I think this will be the final piece of the puzzle to make my decision. On either system he is pricing metal trunk and return but using existing flex ducts .
Old 01-27-2020, 02:05 PM
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The old furnace was probably sized that way for a reason. Not load, but airflow for the cooling season.
Quite possible that the old system airflow requirements for cooling dictated the size of the furnace.
It is also possible that if the ductwork was poorly designed and laid out that furnace was sized to try to jam more air down the duct.
Looked at the Daikin furnace specs and even the 40,000 btu/hr furnace will move over 1000 cfm on high speed. Rule of thumb is 400 cfm/ton. 350 for high humidity applications.
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Old 01-27-2020, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybek View Post
The old furnace was probably sized that way for a reason. Not load, but airflow for the cooling season.
Quite possible that the old system airflow requirements for cooling dictated the size of the furnace.
It is also possible that if the ductwork was poorly designed and laid out that furnace was sized to try to jam more air down the duct.
Looked at the Daikin furnace specs and even the 40,000 btu/hr furnace will move over 1000 cfm on high speed. Rule of thumb is 400 cfm/ton. 350 for high humidity applications.
Not saying you're wrong but doubtful. A 60k furnace with a 3 ton drive is easy to find. I have an 036-060 in my basement 36 (3 ton) drive, 060 (60,000 BTU) I installed a lot of them in that configuration back in the day. Getting up to 4 ton drive in a 60K furnace can be taxing but it's doable in a wide casing furnace. I've never installed a 40K furnace but would guess it could be found in a 3 ton drive just for Southern installs where cooling load is greater than heating load.

My guess based on the appearance of the install is it was a fly by night company that did the install.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:26 AM
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One thing that came out of yesterday's load calculation exercise was the square footage of the house . It was advertised by realtors as 1626 SF but yesterday's calculation came out as an even 1500 . Not a huge discrepancy but a piece of the puzzle and makes sense to me that a 40K furnace could do the job and probably no bigger than 60K .
Old 01-28-2020, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cabmando View Post
Not saying you're wrong but doubtful. A 60k furnace with a 3 ton drive is easy to find. I have an 036-060 in my basement 36 (3 ton) drive, 060 (60,000 BTU) I installed a lot of them in that configuration back in the day. Getting up to 4 ton drive in a 60K furnace can be taxing but it's doable in a wide casing furnace. I've never installed a 40K furnace but would guess it could be found in a 3 ton drive just for Southern installs where cooling load is greater than heating load.

My guess based on the appearance of the install is it was a fly by night company that did the install.
I was never a residential guy in the industry and live in an area with very different heating and cooling loads from you.
Like you had said, the quality of the ductwork is suspect and I was only speculating that the install of the oversize furnace might have been done to overcome this weakness in the system.
Flex has got to be one of he worst methods of delivering air to the diffusers/registers for resistance to flow but it can help cut down on noise from the air system.
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc View Post
One thing that came out of yesterday's load calculation exercise was the square footage of the house . It was advertised by realtors as 1626 SF but yesterday's calculation came out as an even 1500 . Not a huge discrepancy but a piece of the puzzle and makes sense to me that a 40K furnace could do the job and probably no bigger than 60K .

The thing you have to be careful of is over sizing a high E furnace. Up here for 1500 s.f I'd put a 60,000 in all day every day and twice on Sunday. My house is a drafty old farmhouse (working on stopping that!) with about 1600 square feet and my 60,000 furnace does the job the majority of the time. When we had a month of below zero temps a few years ago, it really worked my system but it kept up. If you get too close to the balance, you can actually see the thermostat lose temp. That's never good. As long as the load calc properly calculated windows, doors, R value in walls, exterior (brick, vinyl etc), attic insulation direction of windows... I'd go with the 40,000 furnace and not look back.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:43 PM
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Cab I am confident that the guy doing the load calculations is competent . He asked about the windows which are vinyl double pane insulated , took into account the sun rise/set vs. how the house is positioned . Took into account insulation . House was built in 1996 so I " think " it has house wrap under the vinyl siding . I would say from a drafty/insulated/tightness level my house falls into the average/good category . Meaning I can do better on attic insulation and making doors as an example fit tighter .

I am a little disappointed the other guy that is still in the running didn't mention or actually perform any load calculations . He is a small shop ( nothing wrong with that ) but his quotes were for an 80K furnace . I did share with him what the Daikin guy did/said and because of that he's going to provide a new quote for a 2.5 ton heat pump with a smaller BTU furnace . I don't mind buying local/smaller shop but felt a little uneasy sharing the data that the other guy performed . The larger shop is also local . So now I wait for all the new quotes to come in .
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Old 01-28-2020, 01:58 PM
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I'd be more disappointed that the small shop couldn't look at your house and know that 80K was too big. I don't need load calc software to tell me that's too much for your house with a 90+% efficient home.
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:47 PM
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I'd be more disappointed that the small shop couldn't look at your house and know that 80K was too big. I don't need load calc software to tell me that's too much for your house with a 90+% efficient home.
The thing is when I shared the info from the larger shop with the smaller shops owner he replied " yeah I knew it was too big " . Really ? Then why didn't you quote a more correct size ??? Why didn't you suggest I should have a more appropriate sized system ? 😡
Old 01-28-2020, 03:08 PM
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The thing is when I shared the info from the larger shop with the smaller shops owner he replied " yeah I knew it was too big " . Really ? Then why didn't you quote a more correct size ??? Why didn't you suggest I should have a more appropriate sized system ? 😡
I like the idea of using the small shops but DAMN! "I knew it was too big but quoted it anyhow"?? Not very confidence inspiring. It's his job as a "professional" to educate the homeowner about why it's best to make sure the furnace is properly sized. I know a lot of homeowners think "bigger is better" but it takes some explanation about why a longer cycle time is better for these high efficiency furnaces and why you're not really using more gas to do the same job due to the higher efficiencies of today's furnaces.
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Old 01-29-2020, 07:10 AM
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Yesterday I get a text from the smaller shop asking if he can swing by and chat . He came by and we talked for about 30 minutes , basically him saying the price he gave me was about the best he could do . To recap that was a Goodman dual fuel 18 SEER heat pump with two stage compressor and variable speed 96 % furnace ( 60K ) with all metal trunk and air return box for $8600.00 . 10 year parts/labor warranty with lifetime replacement of compressor and heat exchanger if they fail within 10 years . Not sure how that's a lifetime warranty We had a good talk in general and he really wants my business , as a parting shot he said he'll drop the price to $8100.00 as he is slow right now .

During the conversation he brought up that in 2025 HVAC equipment will be going away from R410A and moving to some type of propane based refrigerant . He stated he was unsure how any of the manufacturers are going to handle these long term warranties . I know the refrigerant itself will still be around just like R22 but what about replacement equipment ? Or will the equipment be backwards compatible ? Overall its not going to affect my decision as I need a system soon but it is somewhat troubling thinking ahead .

As of yesterday I had NOT received the new quotes from the Daikin dude that did the load calculations . I sent an email yesterday I'm going to follow up with a phone call today . I really want to be done with this decision process

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Old 01-31-2020, 06:25 AM
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