1 Desktop hard drive, SSD, fusion?

[masraum]

I'm thinking about getting an iMac. They only have a single HDD (so I can't have a smallish SSD and larger platter drive). If you were going to have everything on a single drive, what are the pros/cons of using either a 1TB SSD or a 1TB fusion drive? (other than SSD will cost more [con] and be faster [pro])

I've heard that SSD don't last quite as long and just fail (no warning). But, since one is all SSD and the other is part SSD and part regular drive, I assume it doesn't matter.

But, I'm out of touch on comp hardware. I would think that if I'm screwed either way, I may as well benefit from the speed of full SSD.

My current computer is over 8 years old on the original HDD. I'd think that a SSD with no moving parts should last as long or longer, but that's not what I've heard.

Thoughts?

[stomachmonkey]

Since there are no moving parts you don't get the classic audible warnings, clicking, excessive noise etc... Read / write errors from bad sectors are also more obvious on platter drives.

I've found platter drives far more easy to recover from.

SSD's, by the time you start realizing something may be amiss it's usually too late.

Fusion is just Optane built into the platter drive, (or Optane is Fusion but on the MB) see Scott D's thread re failed drive.

Fusion will help the box boot faster and make a platter drive feel more like an SSD in performance.

Also depends on what kind of use. SSD's have a limited number of p/e cycles. Cheap tech can have low p/e cycles, a few hundred write / erase cycles up to 10's of thousands for quality stuff.

General advice is don't rely on SSD's in high p/e cycle workflows.

End of day either choice works as long as you maintain an incremental BU regimen.

Essentially, assume either drive type will **** up eventually and plan for it.

Get a 2nd external drive and let Time Machine do it's thing.

[nota]

GET AN EXTERNAL case for the DVD/cd drive and put a hd in it's place there 2 1/2 ssd will fit
it just has to be apple approved [scam by jobs] to cost more

8 years old should have a thunderbolt 1 or 2 CONNECTOR and they are fast for the ex DVD

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by nota

...it just has to be apple approved [scam by jobs] to cost more...

?

That has virtually never been true.

Ever.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by masraum

I've heard that SSD don't last quite as long and just fail (no warning).

Cheap ones do. You get what you pay for.

$WORK ran 1000s of Samsung EVOs 24/7/365. They just keep getting better - but even the older generations were just fine. Run SMART monitoring on them. Very few of those failed with no warning. Maybe 1 or 2 in 4 years; we had more spinning rust just sulk and refuse to play.

The current generation of EVOs have a much larger wear limit than the earlier ones (850 1T endurance rated 150 TBW, current gen 860 1T endurance rated 2400 TBW) - and warrantied for 5 years.

150 TBW is 40GB a day, every day, for 10 years. Most people won't even get close to that.

The hybrids can be much faster than real spinning rust, once they're primed. But SSD are in a different league altogether. Mixing two different technologies also reduces MTBF by simply having more things to go wrong.

I'd buy the largest SSD you can afford, and buy a large, slow external disk for backups/archives.

[masraum]

Thanks all for the info. It sounds like the SSD has gotten better, and it makes sense that there's high and low quality kit. I assume that what comes in an iMac is probably on the higher end of the spectrum than the average cheap comsumer upgrade SSD.

Originally Posted by nota

8 years old should have a thunderbolt 1 or 2 CONNECTOR and they are fast for the ex DVD

My 8 year old box is an HP All-in-One. I'm looking to replace that with an iMac.

I've got a RAID 5 NAS that I use for external storage on my current PC.

[RWebb]

Fusion drive has moving parts - it combines an SSD with a spinner drive

I have a 3TB one - it is not as fast as an SSD but fine

I think you will like the iMac (after you get used to the 'reverse' mouse movements)

Be aware that they are not at all perfect (despite the fan boyz claims) - e.g. I reported a problem with Finder search in 2017 - I went all the way up the 'support' chain regular guy > higher level 'tech' >> then to level 3, engineering

the bug is STILL not fixed and I often discover that Finder search does not find known file names on the system

Good things are that you are essentially using a shell on UNIX so can run all the commands - if you grep what I mean

also, as you add devices - other macs, phones, etc. the benefits grow - e.g. you can use Apple Notes and communicate with all devices, xfer files etc.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

?

That has virtually never been true.

Ever.

Most certainly used to be true, encountered it around the time desktop Macs ran 20Mhz M68xxx CPUs (and 8M of RAM was huge). Apple OEM'd Seagate drives with branded firmware (and a hellacious markup, naturally) - if the drive didn't have the Apple string in it, the OS on the Mac wouldn't play. Cost me $20 to bypass that with some aftermarket software when wifey's whatever-it-was toasted a drive and a generic replacement wouldn't work. Seem to recall it was an extension that found/patched the firmware string in memory.

It was no longer true the next time I touched a Mac - when the G4 was out. Swapped out a failing one in a Mac laptop and a generic TravelStar worked fine.

Toshiba, BTW, still plays identical games today - try fitting a non-Toshiba generic WiFi card into one of their laptops. Good luck with that - the BIOS is coded to scan & reject it, so the hardware simply doesn't exist...

[masraum]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Fusion drive has moving parts - it combines an SSD with a spinner drive

I have a 3TB one - it is not as fast as an SSD but fine

I think you will like the iMac (after you get used to the 'reverse' mouse movements)

Be aware that they are not at all perfect (despite the fan boyz claims) - e.g. I reported a problem with Finder search in 2017 - I went all the way up the 'support' chain regular guy > higher level 'tech' >> then to level 3, engineering

the bug is STILL not fixed and I often discover that Finder search does not find known file names on the system

Good things are that you are essentially using a shell on UNIX so can run all the commands - if you grep what I mean

also, as you add devices - other macs, phones, etc. the benefits grow - e.g. you can use Apple Notes and communicate with all devices, xfer files etc.

I've always experimented with different OSes and things (and I've been into PCs since DOS days). I was originally a hardcore Android guy too. At some point, I feel that Apple caught up with Android as far as useful features, and at that point, the feature that set someone apart was the nearly universal interoperability of Apple. Most of the family has iPhones and/or iPads and the missus has had a Macbook Air for several years. It's actually her getting the MBA that made me decide to get an Apple. I spent 2 or 3 weeks becoming familiar with her computer before I gave it to her (at her request) so that I could continue to be her tech support. It was that short period that sold me on it. Since then, I've found that they aren't perfect, but then neither are Windows boxes.

My experience is that Apple hardware and software all seems to be pretty good.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by masraum

I assume that what comes in an iMac is probably on the higher end of the spectrum than the average cheap comsumer upgrade SSD.

I wouldn't take that bet. They are decent I'm sure...probably mid-spec Samsung/Toshiba MLC drives. Certainly not higher-end / workstation-class SLC drives.
If you are set on an iMac, I'd just opt for the largest SSD you can afford and hope for the best (and maintain a back-up schedule as mentioned).

That said, a high-ish spec iMac with a 1TB SSD will likely be north of $4k, and that's not even for the "Pro" model. For that kind of scratch, you could build/configure one heck of a PC workstation.
As in, better performance in almost every category/metric for the same $$$, and you wouldn't be locked in to a 27" monitor. You would likely have a much better warranty as well. YMMV...

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

I wouldn't take that bet. They are decent I'm sure...probably mid-spec Samsung/Toshiba MLC drives. Certainly not higher-end / workstation-class SLC drives.
If you are set on an iMac, I'd just opt for the largest SSD you can afford and hope for the best (and maintain a back-up schedule as mentioned).

That said, a high-ish spec iMac with a 1TB SSD will likely be north of $4k, and that's not even for the "Pro" model. For that kind of scratch, you could build/configure one heck of a PC workstation.
As in, better performance in almost every category/metric for the same $$$, and you wouldn't be locked in to a 27" monitor. You would likely have a much better warranty as well. YMMV...

iMac Pro starts at $5k, and I think you can get up to $10-15k from there if you load it up.

27" iMac you could get pretty loaded for <$3500. But yes, you're correct, a comparable PC would be cheaper.

[RKDinOKC]

2nd commandment of computers, 1,2, 3 many backups.

Time Machine uses a drive 3 times the data size you are backing up. It keeps hourly versions of files. Fusion drive take more to fix when they do crash.

I also do a bootable direct backup the same size as my boot drive about once a month. If my drive or computer fails, can just boot off the external drive and cruise on. Have to restore a drive from Time Machine before you can boot from it.

2019 Dell PC work got me has same specs as my 2015 Powerbook but somehow the Powerbook is faster and more capable.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by RWebb

I think you will like the iMac (after you get used to the 'reverse' mouse movements)

Not aware of any reverse mouse movements.

If you are talking about vertical scroll direction just change it in System Prefs/Trackpad or mouse/Scroll and Zoom 1st option, deselect Natural.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Not aware of any reverse mouse movements.

If you are talking about vertical scroll direction just change it in System Prefs/Trackpad or mouse/Scroll and Zoom 1st option, deselect Natural.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's all configurable. I use a logitech trackball, but I'll be getting a "magic pad" with the iMac because I love how they work. I suppose it's possible that it won't seem as useful with an iMac as it does with a laptop, but it also may be fine after a period of acclimation.

[nota]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

?

That has virtually never been true.

Ever.

apple requires an external bit added to a HD spin or SS to ''work'' in their modern intel based box lap or imac
it is an unneeded heat sensor

that is why there are APPLE APPROVED HD's LISTED FOR SALE

[spuggy]

Sorry, I thought this went without saying...

Buying a fully-loaded PC or Mac from the manufacturer is for rich people who don't care about throwing money away. Or a company that's going to set against profits and depreciate it.

RAM and disks are user-serviceable parts - it doesn't invalidate warranty to replace them, any more than it does to add/change a graphics card.

So buy the lowest spec base machine that offers what you want, and swap out the base RAM/disk with name-brand quality replacements - sourced from the aftermarket at a fraction of the markup the manufacturer wants.

RAM and SSD usually yield the most cost-effective performance improvements.

After the warranty period, look into the fastest/best CPU the chipset/socket will support - prices generally plummet after the first few years after demand drops off, can often get a nice performance bump from going to the next family/series, or improving the clock rate/# of cores. Desktops are pretty trivial; for laptops, usually have to strip the machine down to nothing, but it's not rocket science, just fiddly. Sometimes it's just not cost-effective for the performance improvement - but sometimes large gains can be had for a reasonable price and 30 minutes work.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by nota

apple requires an external bit added to a HD spin or SS to ''work'' in their modern intel based box lap or imac
it is an unneeded heat sensor

that is why there are APPLE APPROVED HD's LISTED FOR SALE

There are Apple Approved HDs listed because some people will pay more for "official OEM" stuff because the box says approved same as people will buy Morton Salt instead of regular generic store brand salt. It's all just ****ing salt.

With respect to the heat sensor issue, yes a decade ago Apple did away with the external sensor you used to tape to the outside of the drive and went with SMART data via pinout.

Problem is there is no standard on which pin is used to send the data so replacing a Seagate with a Western Digital may have resulted in the fan spinning constantly.

As long as you stayed with the same brand no issue.

If you wanted to switch brands you may need to use that brands cable, or maybe not.

Or get an OWC cable kit that is universal for every drive on the planet.

Or say **** it and just use software fan control.

Every drive will work, some may introduce fan spin but there are solutions for that so to say only Apple approved drives "work" is 1,000% factually incorrect.