PeaceNik vs WarMonger

[widebody911]

A WARMONGER EXPLAINS WAR TO A PEACENIK
By Bill Davidson

PeaceNik: Why did you say we are we invading Iraq?

WarMonger: We are invading Iraq because it is in violation of Security
Council resolution 1441. A country cannot be allowed to violate Security
Council resolutions.

PN: But I thought many of our allies, including Israel, were in violation
of more security council resolutions than Iraq.

WM: It's not just about UN resolutions. The main point is that Iraq could
have weapons of mass destruction, and the first sign of a smoking gun
could well be a mushroom cloud over New York.

PN: Mushroom cloud? But I thought the weapons inspectors said Iraq had no
nuclear weapons.

WM: Yes, but biological and chemical weapons are the issue.

PN: But I thought Iraq did not have any long range missiles for attacking
us or our allies with such weapons.

WM: The risk is not Iraq directly attacking us, but rather terrorist
networks that Iraq could sell the weapons to.

PN: But couldn't virtually any country sell chemical or biological
materials? We sold quite a bit to Iraq in the Eighties ourselves, didn't
we?

WM: That's ancient history. Look, Saddam Hussein is an evil man that has
an undeniable track record of repressing his own people since the early
Eighties. He gasses his enemies. Everyone agrees that he is a power-hungry
lunatic murderer.

PN: We sold chemical and biological materials to a power-hungry lunatic
murderer?

WM: The issue is not what we sold, but rather what Saddam did. He is the
one that launched a pre-emptive first strike on Kuwait.

PN: A pre-emptive first strike does sound bad. But didn't our ambassador
to Iraq, April Glaspie, know about and green-light the invasion of Kuwait?

WM: Let's deal with the present, shall we? As of today, Iraq could sell
its biological and chemical weapons to Al Qaida. Osama Bin Laden himself
released an audio tape calling on Iraqis to suicide-attack us, proving a
partnership between the two.

PN: Osama Bin Laden? Wasn't the point of invading Afghanistan to kill him?

WM: Actually, it's not 100% certain that it's really Osama Bin Laden on
the tapes. But the lesson from the tape is the same: there could easily be
a partnership between Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein unless we act.

PN: Is this the same audio tape where Osama Bin Laden labels Saddam a
secular infidel?

WM: You're missing the point by just focusing on the tape. Powell
presented a strong case against Iraq.

PN: He did?

WM: Yes, he showed satellite pictures of an Al Qaida poison factory in
Iraq.

PN: But didn't that turn out to be a harmless shack in the part of Iraq
controlled by the Kurdish opposition?

WM: And a British intelligence report...

PN: Didn't that turn out to be copied from an out-of-date graduate student
paper?

WM: And reports of mobile weapons labs...

PN: Weren't those just artistic renderings?

WM: And reports of Iraqis scuttling and hiding evidence from inspectors...

PN: Wasn't that evidence contradicted by the chief weapons inspector, Hans
Blix?

WM: Yes, but there is plenty of other hard evidence that cannot be
revealed because it would compromise our security.

PN: So there is no publicly available evidence of weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq?

WM: The inspectors are not detectives, it's not their JOB to find
evidence. You're missing the point.

PN: So what is the point?

WM: The main point is that we are invading Iraq because Resolution 1441
threatened "severe consequences." If we do not act, the Security Council
will become an irrelevant debating society.

PN: So the main point is to uphold the rulings of the Security Council?

WM: Absolutely. ...unless it rules against us.

PN: And what if it does rule against us?

WM: In that case, we must lead a coalition of the willing to invade Iraq.

PN: Coalition of the willing? Who's that?

WM: Britain, Turkey, Bulgaria, Spain, and Italy, for starters.

PN: I thought Turkey refused to help us unless we gave them tens of
billions of dollars.

WM: Nevertheless, they may now be willing.

PN: I thought public opinion in all those countries was against war.

WM: Current public opinion is irrelevant. The majority expresses its will
by electing leaders to make decisions.

PN: So it's the decisions of leaders elected by the majority that is
important?

WM: Yes.

PN: But George Bush wasn't elected by voters. He was selected by the U.S.
Supreme C...

WM: I mean, we must support the decisions of our leaders, however they
were elected, because they are acting in our best interest. This is about
being a patriot. That's the bottom line.

PN: So if we do not support the decisions of the president, we are not
patriotic?

WM: I never said that.

PN: So what are you saying? Why are we invading Iraq?

WM: As I said, because there is a chance that they have weapons of mass
destruction that threaten us and our allies.

PN: But the inspectors have not been able to find any such weapons.

WM: Iraq is obviously hiding them.

PN: You know this? How?

WM: Because we know they had the weapons ten years ago, and they are still
unaccounted for.

PN: The weapons we sold them, you mean?

WM: Precisely.

PN: But I thought those biological and chemical weapons would degrade to
an unusable state over ten years.

WM: But there is a chance that some have not degraded.

PN: So as long as there is even a small chance that such weapons exist, we
must invade?

WM: Exactly.

PN: But North Korea actually has large amounts of usable chemical,
biological, AND nuclear weapons, AND long range missiles that can reach
the west coast AND it has expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, AND
threatened to turn America into a sea of fire.

WM: That's a diplomatic issue.

PN: So why are we invading Iraq instead of using diplomacy?

WM: Aren't you listening? We are invading Iraq because we cannot allow the
inspections to drag on indefinitely. Iraq has been delaying, deceiving,
and denying for over ten years, and inspections cost us tens of millions.

PN: But I thought war would cost us tens of billions.

WM: Yes, but this is not about money. This is about security.

PN: But wouldn't a pre-emptive war against Iraq ignite radical Muslim
sentiments against us, and decrease our security?

WM: Possibly, but we must not allow the terrorists to change the way we
live. Once we do that, the terrorists have already won.

PN: So what is the purpose of the Department of Homeland Security,
color-coded terror alerts, and the Patriot Act? Don't these change the way
we live?

WM: I thought you had questions about Iraq.

PN: I do. Why are we invading Iraq?

WM: For the last time, we are invading Iraq because the world has called
on Saddam Hussein to disarm, and he has failed to do so. He must now face
the consequences.

PN: So, likewise, if the world called on us to do something, such as find
a peaceful solution, we would have an obligation to listen?

WM: By "world", I meant the United Nations.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the United Nations?

WM: By "United Nations" I meant the Security Council.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the Security Council?

WM: I meant the majority of the Security Council.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the majority of the Security
Council?

WM: Well... there could be an unreasonable veto.

PN: In which case?

WM: In which case, we have an obligation to ignore the veto.

PN: And if the majority of the Security Council does not support us at
all?

WM: Then we have an obligation to ignore the Security Council.

PN: That makes no sense.

WM: If you love Iraq so much, you should move there. Or maybe France, with
all the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys. It's time to boycott their
wine and cheese, no doubt about that.

PN: Here... have a pretzel, instead.

[island911]

Strawman ad nauseam.

[Planter91C2]

that reminds me.....

did you hear the one about the two "guys"?

"Thom Fitzpatrick and Patrick Fitzthom"

[speeder]

Here, and I thought that the conservatives would not have an intelligent response to this thread. Once again I've underestimated them.

Sounds pretty much like every non-sensical and hypocritical reason that I've heard for invading Iraq from Bush and his cheese-eating agreement monkeys.

[944S Boyeee]

That was good - I printed it off.

944S Boyeee

[nostatic]

I'd like a nice Brie...room temperature (oohhh...got my cheese and French in one fell swoop).

Are the surrender monkeys going to be the new Dodgers mascot?

[RallyJon]

Later that day...

WM: Did you vote for George Bush?
PN: No.

WM: So you voted for Gore?
PN: Um, no. I didn't vote at all to protest the system.

WM: Good think your boss gave you the day off to protest...
PN: Um, I'm between jobs right now. It was a right wing conspiracy.

WM: You were fired for your political beliefs?
PN: No, I just couldn't stand working for a big corporation. The man was leanin' on me--I don't take that from anyone!

WM: Things must be pretty tough.
PN: Naah, still got that check coming in.

WM: Unemployment?
PN: Yeah, ain't it great--workin' all the angles?

WM: So what do you think of our boys in uniform?
PN: I'm not against them--I'm against Bush!

WM: You've got some free time, why not volunteer?
PN: Awww, no, man. That's not for me.

WM: Couldn't pass the drug test, huh?
PN: Hey--that's not fair! It's strictly medicinal.

[island911]

Originally posted by speeder
Here, and I thought that the conservatives would not have an intelligent response to this thread. Once again I've underestimated them.

Apparently then you wouldn't know an intelligent response if it was under your nose!
Get out the dictionary and look up "Straw man" & "ad nauseam"

straw man n. 1. A person who is set up as cover or a front for a questionable enterprise. 2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated. 3. A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow.

ad nau·se·am (²d nô“z¶-…m) adv. To a disgusting or ridiculous degree; to the point of nausea. [Latin ad, to + nauseam, accusative of nausea, sickness.]

[944S Boyeee]

Man - the PN in the other above example really looks like a loser........

The WM in the first post seemed intelligent enough.

Why does one have to be so stupid for the other to make a point in the second example?

Not all war-protesters are dope-smoking "hippies" you know.......there might actually be one or two who know something.

944S Boyeee

[RallyJon]

I was just pointing out how silly it is to have both sides of an arguement written by the same person with the same agenda.

I thought the WM in the first post missed all sorts of opportunities. It's sort of like being on the witness stand and only able to give yes or no answers. A skilled questioner can make you say all sorts of things you don't mean and that, explained fully, aren't even true.

Not all war-protesters are dope-smoking "hippies" you know.......there might actually be one or two who know something.

That's funny--I thought it was the war-protesters who were doing all the stereotyping?

Some war protestors may actually know something, but the anti-war debate always seems to revolve around past U.S. foreign policy and using other difficult situations in the world as comparisons. All valid issues, but not part of the debate over whether Iraq "needs invadin" right now. When war protestors bring up all the assorted chaff as in the initial post here, my immediate reaction is, "OK, here's another one whose mind is made-up just trying to bolster their position."

Open your mind. Open your eyes. Watch BBC, watch Fox News and watch and read everything in between. By the time we've toppled the Iraqi government and sent all its minions to their just reward, I hope to see that our overall effect on the people of the region was positive. I hope that you're hoping the same thing, too, because it would be pretty bitter and cynical if you weren't.

There is no "war debate". We're at war, so the only thing to debate is how it will end and what will happen afterwards. Get over it, stop posting smug pseudo-intellectual rhetoric, and start hoping as hard as you can that this ends well. Because if it doesn't, all the anti-war whining in the world won't save any of our asses.

[island911]

There is no "war debate". We're at war, so the only thing to debate is how it will end and what will happen afterwards. Get over it, stop posting smug pseudo-intellectual rhetoric, and start hoping as hard as you can that this ends well. Because if it doesn't, all the anti-war whining in the world won't save any of our asses.

! . . .oh, that's good.

[CamB]

There is no "war debate". We're at war, so the only thing to debate is how it will end and what will happen afterwards. Get over it, stop posting smug pseudo-intellectual rhetoric, and start hoping as hard as you can that this ends well. Because if it doesn't, all the anti-war whining in the world won't save any of our asses.

Or to put it another way, lets make the best of a bad situation .

Straw man rhetoric or not, Thom's post gives a flavour of why invading Iraq might not be the most logical step in the world. I really hope that time shows that the decision makers in this process actually had decent reasons...

[island911]

Originally posted by CamB
[i]Or to put it another way, lets make the best of a bad situation .

Straw man rhetoric or not, Thom's post gives a flavour of why invading Iraq might not be the most logical step in the world. I really hope that time shows that the decision makers in this process actually had decent reasons...

No, Cam. It's called stepping up to reality.

For you, though. . ..

[emcon5]

Island whips out Jonny-X's Klink.

You a closet CC-er?

Tom

[island911]

Just every once in a while . . .And I blame YOU for that.

Those guys *are* funny.

[CamB]

Hehe.

Look, we both know what the other thinks, and I think we both know that the other isn't going to change their mind!

Given that:

- it isn't my politicians making the decision to go to war, and
- I'm in New Zealand, which is irrelevant on the world stage,

I might go read the 911 Board then do some work. Its already Friday here, and I don't want to work on the weekend!

[speeder]

Island, What does it say when Thom's "strawman" gives the exact same arguments as Bush and our State Dept.?

And your (all too common and frequently fake) dictionary entries are really not neccesary. Doesn't any of the government's double-talk, miscalculation, and outright B.S. regarding the justification for this war bother you in the least? I will give you the respect of saying that some of your reasons make more sense than theirs, but still, doesn't bother you at all?