Maybe the thrash can hits were harder to hear at home with all the cheering going on.

The perfect analogy for Higgins. Well done sir.

Do more research.

There was a player that stepped up and apologized. Only one though so that’s sad.

I am not a Houston fan.

Mr Bradshaw, the fact is they cheated. Whether or not they gained an apparent advantage is a secondary consideration. It is a matter of what the consequences ought to be for cheating.

I don't particularly care, I gave up on MLB in 1994, have not watched at all since then.

a really good bean ball could change that

I always knew they were up to something. That, and I did lose a pair of binoculars one year. It's all starting to make sense...

I just had this conversation with a friend of mine who is an avid fan. Cheating from its beginning. It's an integral part of the game.

Where do you start: spit balls, pine tar, cork bats, nicking the baseball, sand paper, steriods, sign stealing from 2nd base, vasoline on the ball, change the park dimensions, change the wall heights, too many to list. Even MLB has been accused of modifying the balls: dead balls, live balls. I know of no other sport that has the cheating history that baseball has.

Cheating has been a part of baseball history. Similar to auto racing. Astros just used the latest technology.

1899-1900 Phillies

A backup catcher named Morgan Murphy watched games at Baker Bowl in an “observatory” beyond the centerfield wall, where he stole signs with binoculars. Murphy rigged an underground wire from his perch to the third-base coaching box, where Bull Childs kept his foot above a junction box that would signal the pitch by buzzing once or twice. The Reds discovered and uprooted the system after they noticed Childs was not moving his right foot—not even when that portion of the coaching box included a puddle from rain. The Phillies “explained” the wire as something left behind by a traveling circus that had played at the ballpark. The club was not disciplined.

1909 Highlanders

Gene McCann, a former player, was stationed behind the centerfield fence and peered through a hole with binoculars. He would tip off the scoreboard operator, who would tip vertical the horizontal bar in the “H” in Highlanders for a fastball. One day in September a trainer from the Tigers surprised McCann during a game, overpowering him and seizing the binoculars.

1910-14 Athletics

Substitute outfielder Danny Murphy, armed with binoculars, stood next to a weathervane on a rooftop in Philadelphia. He spun the weathervane north for a curveball and south for a fastball. The system worked well, except for when a gust of wind spun the weathervane in another direction.

1948 Indians

Braves pitcher Johnny Sain charged the Indians with putting a spy in the scoreboard with binoculars. The man would ring a buzzer in the dugout to signal the pitch. Later reports said Cleveland pitchers Bob Feller and Bob Lemon used a telescope obtained from a World War II navy ship. They called out pitches to a groundskeeper, who signaled hitters through an opening in the scoreboard or from a seated position in the bleachers.

1948 Cubs

Gene Mauch and Peanuts Lowry of the Cubs watched a game against the Giants at the Polo Grounds in New York with binoculars from the centerfield clubhouse. When they saw a sign for a fastball they put a bright peach nectar can in the window. For a curve, they took it down.

1951 Giants

The team stole signs from its centerfield clubhouse at the Polo Grounds with the use of a sophisticated 35-millimeter Wollensak telescope. An electrician rigged the phones between the clubhouse and bullpen, which was located in fair territory in right-centerfield 440 feet from home plate. One buzz meant fastball; two buzzes meant an off-speed pitch. Third-base coach Herman Franks, a former catcher, moved to the bullpen to decode the signs (which is why manager Leo Durocher came to coach third base in the second half of the season). Sal Yvars, a backup catcher stationed in the bullpen, would hold a baseball to signal fastball. To indicate an off-speed pitch he would toss the ball in the air.

Word about the system first surfaced in a report from an anonymous player in 1962.

1954-56 White Sox

Manager Marty Marion said he put a coach, Del Wilber, in the centerfield scoreboard with binoculars. He said Wilber relayed the sign for a fastball to the hitter by moving the “10” in the scoreboard next to Sherm Lollar’s name. Orioles manager Paul Richards said in 1956, “They did it last year and they’re doing it now through a high-powered telescope through a little hole in the scoreboard.”

1955 Athletics

The A’s used a surveyor’s telescope to steal signs from their bullpen. When an off-speed pitch was called, an A’s reliever would place a towel on the bullpen ledge. No towel signaled a fastball to the hitter.

1959 Yankees and Red Sox

The first charge that teams used TV cameras to steal signs derived from a Yankees-Red Sox game (what else?). It was the eighth NBC telecast using the newly installed centerfield camera. Because of the controversy, and at the request of commissioner Ford Frick, NBC said it would discontinue use of the centerfield camera.

1959 Giants

The Giants used a spy in the scoreboard to steal signs. Giants pitcher Al Worthington, a deeply religious man, told manager Bill Rigney he could not abide such cheating and asked for a trade. The Giants traded him to the White Sox.

1960 White Sox

Worthington quit his next team because that team was cheating, too. He quit in August because the White Sox stole signs from the centerfield scoreboard at Comiskey Park.

Pitcher Bob Shaw, after being traded by the White Sox to the Athletics in 1961, described the scheme: "They used a tube with a light in it, and somebody would sit in the scoreboard … If the light went on it was a fastball, if it didn’t it was a curve."

1960 Braves

Two Braves starting pitchers, Joey Jay and Bob Buhl, were discovered sitting in the bleachers at Wrigley Field and waving white scorecards to hitters to tell them what pitch was coming.

1961 Reds

According to Cincinnati pitcher Jay Hook, his team put a scout, a former pitcher named Brooks Lawrence, in the centerfield scoreboard at Crosley Field to steal signs and relay them to the dugout via telephone. Hook made his comments after joining the Mets in 1962.

Presaging Fiers, Hook said then, “I didn’t say anything about it, but now I’m on the Mets and I want to protect the Mets against that sort of thing. I think it’s wrong.

“The commissioner [Ford Frick] should see that a ruling is put in against it, and enforce it. A $10,000 fine would be a good idea.”

1961 Cubs

Braves manager Birdie Tebbetts filed a protest, accusing the Cubs of using binoculars from the bleachers and scoreboard at Wrigley Field. After the Braves traded for pitcher Jack Curtis from the Cubs, Curtis “confirmed the charges,” Tebbetts said.

Said Mets coach Solly Hemus then about rampant sign-stealing, “That’s the main reason games take so long to play these days. Switching signs, and conferences between catcher and pitcher add 20 minutes to a game.”

1971 Indians

White Sox manager Chuck Tanner charged the Indians stole signs from the scoreboard. He told reporters the White Sox “are not going to play in the Cleveland ballpark again until either the commissioner or American League president takes a look at that scoreboard.”

1973 Brewers

Rangers manager Whitey Herzog accused Bernie Brewer, the Milwaukee Brewers mascot, of partaking in a sign stealing scheme from his chalet in the outfield. According to Herzog, a man next to Bernie Brewer stole signs with binoculars. Bernie Brewer, dressed in Bavarian garb, would signal a breaking pitch to the batter by clapping furiously with his white gloves. He took off the gloves when the Rangers batted. Herzog complained to umpire Tom Haller, who chased away the man with binoculars and told Bernie Brewer to keep his gloves off.

In thinking about creating a similar home-field advantage in Texas, Herzog said, “Maybe we should put a Texas Ranger or somebody out there and shoot a gun or something when a curveball is coming.”

1976 Athletics

Herzog, then manager of the Royals, complained the A’s were stealing signs from their bullpen with the help of binoculars. Herzog led the umpiring crew out to the bullpen, where they found binoculars under a towel.

1976 Yankees

Manfred found in his research that this incident stood as the most recent penalty related to sign-stealing—though not directly.

Yankees scout Clyde King served as the team’s “eye in the sky” to position defenders during the postseason. King communicated with coach Gene Michael in the dugout via walkie-talkies. Manager Billy Martin claimed the commissioner’s office approved the system, but the Reds protested during World Series Game 1 when King and two other New York scouts, Tebbetts and Karl Kuehl, set up their operation in a CBS radio booth equipped with a TV monitor—not in the stands.

1980s White Sox

The White Sox placed a 25-watt refrigerator bulb in the scoreboard at Comiskey Park. A White Sox staffer would sit in the manager’s office, watch the TV broadcast and signal pitches with a toggle switch connected to the light.

1990 White Sox

The Orioles filed a complaint that Joe Nossek, the White Sox’s “eye in the sky” used to position defenders, sat facing their dugout and accused him of stealing signs. The claim led to a rule against such surveillance.

1997 Mets

The Philadelphia Phillies complained to the league office that the Mets were using video cameras trained on opposing third-base coaches, pitchers and dugouts to steal signs. The league told the Mets to be sure the cameras were trained only on batters and pitchers.

1999 Indians

Red Sox manager Jimy Williams presented evidence to umpire Tim Welke that the Indians used a camera atop the centerfield wall to steal signs. Welke ordered the Indians to cover the camera. (The Red Sox claimed the signs were transmitted to the hitter by whistling from the dugout.) Cleveland said the camera was used to evaluate player performance.

It was not the first time Boston accused the Indians of cheating. In the 1995 ALDS, Boston manager Kevin Kennedy made the same accusation regarding the camera that Williams did.

2010 Phillies

The Rockies accused the Phillies of stealing signs after Philadelphia bullpen coach Mick Billmeyer was shown on camera using binoculars when the Rockies were batting. The Phillies denied the binoculars were used to steal signs.

About a week ago - I posted this question: "Do any of you ardent fans of the game & its perceived integrity, think the Astros 2017
postseason series victories should have an asterisk or some other identifier the series results were tainted?"

It appears as some of you are of a similar mindset indicating this issue should be addressed & dealt with by some means.
I quoted these stats (admittedly 'high-graded') to support my personal feeling & views.

In 2017, the Astros’ 9 road games, the team batted .208 with a .284 on-base percentage, a .347 slugging percentage, and scored an
average of 3 runs per game, winning 3 and losing 6. In the Astros’ 9 home games, they batted .273 with a .343 on-base percentage,
a .519 slugging percentage, and score an average of 5.7 runs per game, winning 8 and losing just 1 game.

The splits are equally as striking when taking a look at some individual Astros’ players’ home and road splits in the 2017 postseason.

Alex Bregman: Road – .154 BA, .508 OPS; Home – .273 BA, .857 OPS.

Carlos Correa: Road – .211 BA, .626 OPS; Home – .371 BA, 1.164 OPS.

Jose Altuve: Road – .143 BA, .497 OPS; Home – .472 BA, 1.541 OPS.

Brian McCann: Road – .037 BA, .198 OPS; Home – .300 BA, .849 OPS.

Evan Gattis: Road – .200 BA, .533 OPS; Home – .300 BA, 1.014 OPS.

The stats certainly appear to 'skewed', & quite telling.

Hammerin' Hank’s view on the Astros sign stealing:“Hank Aaron says perpetrators in Astros sign-stealing scheme 'should be out of baseball' Sign-stealing
has been part of baseball's gamesmanship for decades. The Houston Astros crossed a line in 2017, however, when they used electronics in their scheme to
relay signs to hitters in real-time.”

So there it is guys, we may have a consensus but I strongly doubt much will come of it.

Cheers
JB

I don't know about you but a $5M fine to the team owner is something, IMO.

We all know Darvish and Kershaw blow big games. I'm a somewhat Rangers fan and know this. Much to do about nothing here. At the very best, those two pitchers had to throw the "tipped off" ball on location as well. If you have seen them just as little as I have over the years, you would know they suck when the heat is on, plain and simple.

Hi Denis!SmileWavy

Just look at post #29...those numbers don't lie.

Yes it sucks. But MLB will sweep it under the rug unless the courts get involved.

BTW. The spit ball WAS LEGAL at one time.

Think of how much better their record would have been if they had not cheated!

48-33 home, but 53-28 away. The system was setup in Minute Made park. The record seems to indicate that the "cheating" made them lose games. I expect that trying to figure out the pitches distracted the players and hurt them more than helped.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1581642520.JPG

Red, just because they lose it does not mean they are not cheating. Maybe they would have lost more at home, certainly looks like they hit a lot better at home.
Not really, what was the revenue of the Astros in 2019?

The GM and coach were suspended and then fired. Beltrán lost his position with the Mets.

The Red Sox are currently under investigation for stealing signs using electronic equipment. You can bet your azz that other teams have done similar and haven't been caught.

So, they are hitting better at home, but are losing more? How does that work?

I agree that they shouldn't have cheated, I'm just saying they might have done better if they hadn't.

At the end of the day, I see this exactly the same way I see the big blowup over the Patriots - big yawn. No affect on anyone outside of baseball, unless they let it. MLB owns the game and everything about it, and can do whatever they like about it. Or not. My cynical side says they will do what is "best for the game", which really means the bottom line. If controversy brings in spectators and viewers, all the better. "There is no such thing as bad publicity".

I guess I just can't get wrapped up enough in a game that others are playing to really care. I mentioned role models and kids earlier, but even when cheating, they can be used as such. Not every role model has to be a positive one. It's just as valuable to say "son, these people lied, cheated, and stole their way to the front. Look what greed can do to a man. Avoid people like this...".

I don't care much for sports that give me a stick which I can't use against my opponent.:D

Ol Mr. Lobsterboat Captain has done this for years in NE. Equally illegal. Never punished. Cost the Birds a SB.