Wood refinishing - Lacquer over stain?

[rockfan4]

Quick question -
I'm refinishing a guitar. I used an oil based wiping stain - Old Masters if it matters.
Can I apply a spray lacquer over that? The can said test a small area first, and reading online apparently there are horror stories of the solvents in the lacquer wrinkling the stain, making the whole thing look terrible. Should I just use a Poly?

[Zeke]

Look171, I and others here do a lot of finishing. The lacquer over oil based stain is always an issue. I'd do exactly what they recommend and make a test piece out of the same wood.

That having been said, a wiping stain can be wiped down to where's there's no film to wrinkle. It does need to be dry and somewhat cured before lacquer.

[targa911S]

if you want to keep the wood grain and get a good gloss, try Truoil. Rub it on wool it off, do that a bunch of times. Or just use poly and wet sand the last few color coats. If your going Nitro because of sound quality, forget about it. No difference to your ear. As far as aging nitro? maybe your grand kids.

[908/930]

I would do a urethane, automotive clear coat works well, I have a cherry table I finished that way. Real lacquer is hard and has no tolerance for movement, and the wood will move. Let the stain flash off for a week or so if it was oil based before putting anything on it and you should be ok.

[rockfan4]

Thanks for the info.
Here's what I have:
It's a Les Paul Studio Faded, with a worn brown finish.
I got it cheap about 8 years ago because someone spray painted the body black, and did not do a very good job. So I sanded off all the paint on the body, I'm planning on staining the back and sides to match the neck, and painting the top. I'm trying to make it look like a goldtop.
There's two coats of stain on it so far, the first one wasn't dark enough to match the neck. It matches pretty close now.
I was going to use a Testors spray metallic lacquer for the top, but after your advice and some more research, I think I'm shelving that idea.
Now I'm thinking of using a Rustoleum metallic, and then Rustoleum Crystal Clear over that and the stain.

I'll wait to spray. I'm not going to spray in the house, and it will be a few weeks before it is warm enough to spray in the garage.

I'm also going to take your suggestion and make a test piece. The guitar is mahogany, it doesn't have a maple top. I don't have any mahogany to test with, but I do have a piece of maple to test on. Do you think that will be close enough?

[fastfredracing]

For clear coat, you can now purchase honest to goodness 2 part automotive grade clear coat in a spray can.
Id love to see your project! We are currently cloning a Zak Wylde Les paul out of an epiphone that we got under similar circumstances . Keeps my kid off the computer, and I enjoy stuff like this
Once I lay out and spray the circles, I am going to automotive grade clear coat it .

[rockfan4]

I'm still debating between clearing it gloss or satin.

The Zakk Wylde bullseye was one of the designs I considered, along with his buzzsaw, and the Hetfield iron cross. I tried dyeing the top to do a burst finish, but I couldn't get it to take, so I decided on the goldtop. I'm not going to mix bronze flakes into clear lacquer and apply a bunch of coats, this will have to be close enough.

I'll post pics in a month or so when I and the weather are ready for the next step.

I don't want to move it right now, I just put the second coat of stain on last night.

[look 171]

We stopped doing much finishing due to cost and keeping a spray booth within the shop. AQMD and everyone is on my ass about paying up. I don't just build cabinets for people anymore but my own clients when we rebuild the whole house.

I spray and fussed with building guitars in my late 20s. I discovered the tone or sound changes with different type of finish, or top coat. I found Automotive finish and poly is a bit heavy making the sound a bit muted. Typical modern nitrocellulose lacquer is the closest to what a guitar should sound like and there are many kinds out there. The lacquer is getting harder and harder to find here in CA. Two or three thin coat of pre-cat lacaquer maybe the best if you ask me. As far as going over oil based satin, I have done that with great success. The real trick is to allow enough time for the oil to complete dry. Depending on the brand or formula, it may take some time.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by rockfan4

I'm still debating between clearing it gloss or satin.

The Zakk Wylde bullseye was one of the designs I considered, along with his buzzsaw, and the Hetfield iron cross. I tried dyeing the top to do a burst finish, but I couldn't get it to take, so I decided on the goldtop. I'm not going to mix bronze flakes into clear lacquer and apply a bunch of coats, this will have to be close enough.

I'll post pics in a month or so when I and the weather are ready for the next step.

I don't want to move it right now, I just put the second coat of stain on last night.

Why not water based stain? let dry and sand or steel woo the raised grain and apply lacquer (an industrial waterbase lacquer is pretty good these days), buff out to finish off

[Bill Douglas]

I also use automotive clear coat. A very hard finish. the stain is soaked up by the wood so I couldn't imagine it effecting clear coat.

[slodave]

Having built a Les Paul, it’s not an issue, though I used dyes instead of stain. If oil stain, then use a traditional oil based lacquer and you shouldn’t have an issue.

FYI: lacquer takes about a year to fully cure. It’ll cure to about 80% after 30 days - this is important as it shrinks during those 30 days. If you do your final sanding and buffing the next day after the final coat, in 30 days you’ll see the effects of the shrinkage. Also, as far as hardness, once fully cured, lacquer has the same hardness as Polyurethane - I’ve done the tests. Benefit of poly is that you can do the final sanding/buffing days after the last coat is applied.

[look 171]

Ahh, I see, electric guitar not acoustic. The type of lacquer wouldn't matter to the sound

[slodave]

BTW, the LP Studio should have had the color mixed into the lacquer, not a stain on the body.

Also, oil based lacquer when sprayed correctly should dry pretty much on contact with the wood.

Lastly, each coat of lacquer melts into each other. This is why it’s fairly easy to repair a lacquer finish on an older guitar. Doesn’t matter how old the lacquer is, any new coats will melt into the old. With Polyurethane, each layer lays on top of each other, making finish repairs more difficult down the road. You can sand into a poly finish and see the layers.

Look171: the finish will affect the sound of acoustic or electric guitars. When I built my LP I went out of my way to replicate the finishing techniques exactly as Gibson did it in ‘59. Granted, the exact composition of today’s oil based lacquer isn’t anywhere near what it was back then, I drove far to source it as close as I could.

[LWJ]

I like lacquer. Maybe irrationally so.

Check out reranch. They are all lacquer for guitars. I can't answer the stain question, but they may?

[look 171]

Originally Posted by slodave

BTW, the LP Studio should have had the color mixed into the lacquer, not a stain on the body.

Also, oil based lacquer when sprayed correctly should dry pretty much on contact with the wood.

Lastly, each coat of lacquer melts into each other. This is why it’s fairly easy to repair a lacquer finish on an older guitar. Doesn’t matter how old the lacquer is, any new coats will melt into the old. With Polyurethane, each layer lays on top of each other, making finish repairs more difficult down the road. You can sand into a poly finish and see the layers.

Look171: the finish will affect the sound of acoustic or electric guitars. When I built my LP I went out of my way to replicate the finishing techniques exactly as Gibson did it in ‘59. Granted, the exact composition of today’s oil based lacquer isn’t anywhere near what it was back then, I drove far to source it as close as I could.

I know nothing about guitars but tried to build a couple with a friend when we had nothing to do way back. He plays but knows nothing about building them. We actual made a couple of acoustic ones, and it sound OK to my untrained ears. Once we applied the finish, it sound muffled. I am surprise that it affects electrical guitars too. I always thought it was all in the electronics?

[908/930]

Just a couple of things to keep in mind, make sure the wood is climatized to the moisture level it will normally be in, wood will expand /contract quite a lot depending on moisture conditions, and for painting make sure the temperature of the item is correct, don't leave it in cold garage overnight and expect to spray next morning, allow proper time and temp between coats to avoid the solvents getting trapped in the paint, less of a prob with real Lacquer.

[rockfan4]

I failed.
It is finally warm enough here to spray, the trick is doing it on a day with low humidity. The stain had 3 months to dry.
I tried Testor's Extreme Lacquer for the gold - it says on the can that it is a sealer, primer and top coat all in one.
The clear is Watco clear lacquer, it went on without lifting the stain, it should look good once it dries completely and is sanded.
The Testors on the other hand, did not. It went over bare wood, and ended up bubbling up, looks like I'm going to have to sand it off and try again.

[pwd72s]

How close are you to Nekoosa, WI? These people know wood finishing...who knows? Maybe you could talk them into spraying their polyurethane mix for you.

https://www.jacobycustomcues.com/

[look 171]

Sorry that didn't work out for you. I know nothing about Testor products but used them as a kid to paint model car and such. If kids can buy such paint, it must not be too good, the whole kid friendly, safe, thing? I haven't really seen a great product that will stain, seal and do everything else as one application. Strip it all off there, and go get some real gold spray paint. Automotive painting supply will get you all the compatible paint and cleat coat. Is the stained back going to stay?

[look 171]

or, get some gold spray paint, let dry for a few weeks and spray General Finish's gloss Poly (make sure they are compatible). Its great stuff and finishes super hard, but must be done with a spray gun. Polish it out and it will look and feel like a million bucks