The Sweden argument

[sugarwood]

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/it-s-been-so-so-surreal-critics-sweden-s-lax-pandemic-policies-face-fierce-backlash

The country did not ignore the threat entirely. Although stores and restaurants remained open, many Swedes stayed home, at rates similar to their European neighbors, surveys and mobile phone data suggest.

, The country has seen roughly 590 deaths per million—on par with 591 per million in the United States and 600 in Italy, but many times the 50 per million in Norway, 108 in Denmark, and 113 in Germany.

Stockholm’s nursing homes ended up losing 7% of their 14,000 residents to the virus. The vast majority were not taken to hospitals.

One measure of COVID-19’s impact, excess mortality, was far higher in Sweden than in neighboring countries and Germany,

The government limited gatherings to a maximum of 500 people,

Upper secondary schools and universities went online.

Indirect data suggest children in Sweden were infected far more often than their Finnish counterparts.

Sweden’s summer traditions may have helped: Hundreds of thousands leave cities and towns for remote cabins in what amounts to 3 months of national social distancing.

[ckissick]

The article doesn't offer much new, compared to other threads that have been posted. It comes down to weighing the increased number of deaths against the various detrimental impacts of shutting down an economy, schools, etc. In Sweden, 0.06% of the total population have died of Covid. In Norway, 0.005% have died. Is ten times more dead in Sweden worth it when the final number is so low anyway? Will Norway catch up? No one knows.

The article said 7% of nursing home residents died of Covid. I tried to look up how many die during normal times. After all, they're in nursing homes, usually a person's last stop on this earth. All I could find was a study of Icelandic nursing homes, conducted between 1996 and 2006. They found that 28.8% of residents die within 1 year of being admitted, and 53.1% die within 3 years. These rates were pretty constant over the 10-year study. I guess you could say that about 7% had died over a three-month period, equal to the percentage who died in Sweden over roughly the same time frame.

[legion]

Let's completely ignore that Sweden is NOT seeing the same second wave that everywhere else is.

Personal responsibility works better than government mandates.

Also, people need to be allowed to take the risks they (not the government) deem appropriate.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by legion

Let's completely ignore that Sweden is NOT seeing the same second wave that everywhere else is.

Personal responsibility works better than government mandates.

Also, people need to be allowed to take the risks they (not the government) deem appropriate.

Yes they are. They have two provinces where they are adding restrictions. Stockholm is next on their list.

More Swedish regions advised for more restrictions as COVID-19 cases increase 70 pct in one week - Xinhua | English.news.cn

STOCKHOLM, Oct. 27 (Xinhua) -- COVID-19 cases have increased 70 percent in one week in Sweden, sparking the country to impose more restrictions in more regions, Swedish Television (SVT) on Tuesday quoted Anders Tegnell, a state epidemiologist, as saying at a press conference of the Public Health Agency of Sweden.

Tegnell said that the current upward trend in coronavirus infections in Sweden is evident, and that was also partly due to the fact that testing has been stepped up. "It is partly due to increased sampling, but there is definitely an increased spread of infections in parts of the society," he said.

Skane, the southernmost county of Sweden, is the second region to be advised for stricter local restrictions after the university city of Uppsala, about 70 kilometers north of the capital Stockholm, where coronavirus has spread rapidly especially among the younger age groups. Currently, the top three regions in Sweden that are particularly affected by the increased transmissions are Skane, Uppsala and Stockholm.

According to SVT, people in the Skane region are currently urged to avoid public transport and shops. Tegnell also suggested that a unified national guideline on restrictions could be used if more regions see an upsurge.

At the same time, SVT reported that the number of patients in the intensive care unit in Skane is also increasing.

[Sooner or later]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-30/sweden-hits-highest-daily-coronavirus-case-number/12829990

"Striving for herd immunity is neither ethical nor otherwise justifiable," Dr Tegnell told German paper Die Zeit.

"We're beginning to approach the ceiling for what the healthcare system can handle," Dr Tegnell told a news conference.

"Together, as during the spring, we can push down this curve and avoid the strain on healthcare."

Stockholm authorities said separately that the number of COVID-19 patients in need of care in the region had risen about 60 per cent over the past week after a near 80 per cent surge in recorded infections.

[Sooner or later]

Tegnell is Sweden's Fauci.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by legion

Let's completely ignore that Sweden is NOT seeing the same second wave that everywhere else is......

They sure are.

Originally Posted by legion

.....Personal responsibility works better than government mandates......

Which does not work in the USA. Look at demographics of new cases. Additionally, we cannot even track and contact trace.

Originally Posted by legion

....Also, people need to be allowed to take the risks they (not the government) deem appropriate.

Agree, but I don't want to pay for the irresponsible risk-taker's health care, nor do I want them infecting me or my family.

[fintstone]

[fintstone]

[Sooner or later]

They are concerned about overwhelming their hospital system due to increase in cases.


"We're beginning to approach the ceiling for what the healthcare system can handle," Dr Tegnell told a news conference.

"Together, as during the spring, we can push down this curve and avoid the strain on healthcare."

[dad911]

[fintstone]

Pretty sure I would prefer the Sweden (with no real lockdown or mask wear) graph.

[Sooner or later]

I live in Oklahoma. We are more open than any place in Sweden.

I will take states and cities determining their own needs rather than the national government deciding on a nationwide 50 person limit on gatherings.

Fint, you actually want less state and more federal intervention?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

I live in Oklahoma. We are more open than any place in Sweden.

I will take states and cities determining their own needs rather than the national government deciding on a nationwide 50 person limit on gatherings.

Fint, you actually want less state and more federal intervention?

We all don't love in Oklahoma. I want less intervention period...which has been the case in Sweden compared to much of this country.

[Sooner or later]

You want more federal government intervention, which is surprising. Sweden implemented a national 50 person limit on gatherings. No Sturgis. No rallies. No 4th of July.

You would still be crying the blues.

Also, Sweden still allows localities to implement additional restrictions. You would still be in the same damn boat while open states would be under additional federal limits.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Sooner or later

You want more federal government intervention, which is surprising. Sweden implemented a national 50 person limit on gatherings. No Sturgis. No rallies.

You would still be crying the blues.

There are a lot of places in this country where there is an almost total limit on gatherings...and people have to wear underwear over their heads to go outside. Sweden has done better than most states with regard to intervention. I would prefer a 50-person limit to a 10 person limit...which is many people's reality.

[Sooner or later]

Sweden allows additional limits within localities. There would still be the same harsh local sanctions

You wouldn't be any better off and I would be worse.

[wdfifteen]

I thought this was going to be a Saab vs Volvo.
That would have been an interesting discussion.

[Sooner or later]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

I thought this was going to be a Saab vs Volvo.
That would have been an interesting discussion.

I had a buddy that owned an early Saab 900 Turbo. Got to drive it on a ski trip. It was strange, though fun.

If I remember correctly the ignition switch was between the seats.

[wdfifteen]

^^
Yes, I wasn’t a fan after Saab went to 4 stroke engines, but I do remember 900 series cars with the key in the console. I think it locked the transmission.