Power backup for house, need the Borg's opinion
 

You know, you guys, the collective ;-)

Goal is to have practical backup power at the house as our utility (PG&E) is third world class and frequently has power outages (voluntary and involuntary).

- Solar comes out to 20K for panels, $10-12K per powerwall (might need 2), and a life of 10 years on those only... Ouch.

- Full house gas generator - while the genny is $6000 or so, the total bill including power transfer switch, some trenching (location is an issue, can't be too close to neighbors), gas lines extension, pad, permitting, etc -> $24000 - Jeeeezus, hold me !!!! I thought that could be done under 10K !

- Plan C (as in cheapskate), transfer box for 10 circuits to plug in a regular generator - $2200 or so. Nothing automatic there, start generator, feed 10 circuits of my choice. On that one, my honda 2000i would not work because of how my old house is wired, I'd apparently need a 240V inverter putting out more wattage too, so either a $4500 honda 7000i (quiet), or an el cheapo $1000 louder unit... I don't understand the 240V part but he said some circuits in my panel use the same white wire and cancel each other out, needs to be a 240v inverter or my 110 inverter (which is only 2000W anyway) would melt my "white wire" when the power comes back, something about the shape of the wave... electricity is magic to me ;-)

Seems right to y'all ? Expensive ? BS ? that 240V deal ? other ideas ? Goal is not to invest $$$ to save $, it's simply to have convenient power in the house (microwave, fridge, wifi, TV, PC, lights) without a mess of extension cords when the utility goes kaboom.

Your in CA, is it cold in your area? Not sure why you need a 220v as as emergency backup unless you need to run your 220v ac unit or 220v oven, if you are just trying to keep some lights and fridge and freezer running 120v should be able. Do you really need 10 circuits?

I have a 2300w inverter gen for backup, good for fridge freezer and gas furnace blower motor, I stagger the startup of freezer fridge, and keep full tank of fuel in the 535i, easy to get at.

240 is not really a function of the power or temp, he said it's because of how my house panel is wired, the generator would need to be 240 - 120 could damage my wiring when the power comes back on... I confess not understanding the details there. There generator he recommended is not more expensive so I don't think he was trying to pull a fast one there...

FYI your fully automatic quote was within $1k of the one I received to do the job last year in New York. I went the sub panel route. Keep in mind where you store the generator when not in use. If you have a detached garage with a garage door opener you could find yourself SOL when the power goes. There are work arounds...

A few things.

I have a basement and it needs sump pumps to stay dry. Really inconvenient in Hurricanes and storms, especially at night:D

I have multiple generators and a transfer switch at the house. We plug in the big wire from the generators (240v) and then turn on those circuits we want. Mainly sump pumps, water and entertainment. Fridges, too. https://www.bestgenerators.org/240v-generator

You want the 240v plugged into your transfer switch. Easy day. BTW, get a cable that allows you to run the generator outside the garage.

This year was incredible in terms of rain and storms...25 years here and nothing remotely close in terms of rain. The farm is a swamp.

I also live at the end of the trolley line, the last folks to get power restored.

So, after many sleepless nights this year worrying about sump pumps and power outages, I am going with an automatic system next year. I am too old for this crap.

Since a lot of the work has been done, it will be sub 15k for what I want.

I'll also keep the current generators as back-ups.

Hmmm, the switch unit usually bypasses the main panel. If there is a kitchen outlet with double breaker it could be the problem.

Thank you, yes the Chanmpion one is the one he recommended so good to see you agree... Does the 240V make sense ? That's the one part I'm still somewaat confused about but I'll trust there's a good reason. I'm just bummed I can't just use my Honda 2000i.

You could use your Honda if you wanted to, I’m sure California code is ridiculous but there’s affordable, safe ways to wire up your Honda.

I also have the smaller Honda’s and link them.

http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/pe/pdf/misc/EU2200i-EU2000i-Parallel-Operation.pdf

I needed the portability for the stable and can link them to power the house via the transfer plug if needed.

I have to keep the basement dry.

The 120 240 issue has to do with pushing too many amps through the neutral on branch circuits sharing a neutral. Could cause a fire.

Before you spend potentially thousands on a back up generator, I would have PG&E pull an outage report on your house.

I know they have a huge territory, but after a couple shut offs in my area, everyone had the same bug to buy whole house generators. In the past 15 years, the power has been off at my house for a total of 4 hours involuntary, and 4 days due to the PSPS.

While the PSPS shut offs were annoying, only once did it cause us to throw out food and actually cost us money.

A couple days every decade or two of the power being out would never, ever pay back. I'd have to value the convenience of having power during those rare outages at a crazy level to justify a whole house generator, especially over a small generator to run the fridge and couple other devices.

Your house might have more frequent shutoffs which is why I suggest having them send you a report...it's worth it to have all the info before dropping that kind of coin

If he doesn’t reply send a PM to Redbeard, he does this stuff for a living.

My over the fence neighbor behind me put in a Generac whole house unit. It was 8 grand and I thought that was a lot. In the years many he has had it it has had to run for about 20 minutes total.

24 grand must be one whopper of a generator.

One every thread like this I get the urge to get a generator. Then I get back to the fact that out power is so reliable. In 22 years at this house there are just two occasions where It would have run and been nice to have. Neither outtage was a big deal.

As a matter of fact, we just had out power turned on again a couple of hours ago after being off for almost three days. This is the second time this has happened this winter. Plus we've had several complete days of outage because they're replacing wood poles with steel ones. This is all to prevent the poles from burning in case of fire. The multiple day outages are because of high winds coupled with high fire danger periods, which is probably an ongoing situation. I have a 10 kW generator powering six circuits on a 7.5 kW transfer box. I bought both knowing I needed a backup but not knowing exactly how much & what for at the time. The house is all electric, & for this reason I'm considering a diesel backup of 15 to 25 kW for the whole house & pressure pump. The setup now takes care of fridge, freezer, some lights, & plugins, but when we go for days without power, it's a real bother. I'd look at what you want to power and decide on the size of generator. The only reason you'd want a whole house setup would be if you go through times of multiple day outages.

If there ends up being a way around the 240V requirement, and you can use 120V, Honda makes an 'add on' 2200 watt model called the Companion, which can work all by itself, or, using a simple set of parallel cables, connect to your current Honda genny. The Companion has a beefy 30A twist-lock receptacle, so you can pull the full amount of (4.4kW) power from *both* units via a single receptacle on the Companion.



This makes it super easy to then plug into a an inlet box to supply power to a transfer switch.

There are also a number of third-party external tanks that can tee into the fuel caps of both generators, significantly increasing the run time. FYI, the Honda EU2200 and Companion 2200 both use fuel pumps, so the extended-run tanks work nicely.

Linking the two still only gives 120v, just higher amperage, I have a connector to run both of mine together.

A&B are the only ones that will add to the value of the home.
A is the only one that will pay you back over time.
I would choose solar.

Those little guys are air cooled and carb. Really not that long term reliable. I would go with a 6 kw 120 v water cooled diesel. With a steady load and 1800 rpm they will last 10,000 + hours. 4 hours per gallon. Used ones go for under a grand.

The transfer switch should be pretty easy to wire. I say easy for me, but I've designed a couple stand alone systems for personal use.

Thanks a lot guys, makes sense...

Honestly my option#1 was full house, set and forget and invite the neighbors to sip a cold beverage during the next outage, but I was assuming under $10K. $25K is stupid money and serious margins IMO.

Solar was never really in the cards, it's 30-40K all done with powerwalls and I may not live here forever, and it may cause roofing issues (like, hell, let's redo the roof while we're at it).

We went 5 days without power last year on fire risk shutdowns, this year not so bad but lost it 2-3 times and each time it's a rat's nest of power cords and young kids freaking out. Now that I work from home full time I really need a more practical solutions than a cord thru the window and exhaust smell. A transfer switch for my generator is a good cheap solution, clean... I put a deposit for it tonight after reading all the posts.. The unplanned issue was the 120V vs 240 that will require me to buy a new generator. I can resell the honda I guess. Seems like the least crazy solution for an occasional outage - $3500 all in, I'm guessing, with a permanent enclosure on the side of the house near the panel. I love Hondas but paying $4500 for a 7000i that'll run at worst a week a year isn't smart allocation of resources, I also need a set of pilot sport 4S ;-)

Thank you to DPMulvan for confirming the 120-240V that I did not understand!

Isn’t it possible to use an electric vehicle’s battery as back up power for one’s house? I could imagine there is a way that if you had solar it would charge your car during the day, but at night you would use the car’s battery to deliver power to your home.

Different type of battery

On Generators - That cost is WAY too high. A 20kW install should be around $8-10K with everything. The 20kW Generator retails for around $4500-$5000K with a transfer switch. The Electrical install should be about $1-2K. Generator install is SIMPLE. The "hard" part is the gas line, since it usually requires piping and trenching. And either a propane tank or a new gas meter. Most house meters are too small for a generator.

My Generator supplier is about 18-20 weeks right now, when normally everything is in stock. @$20K, someone is charging "ammo" tax right now.

Solar.

We do not sell Tesla Equipment. I get asked about it all the time. It is SO limited in output and battery capacity. And expensive. And loud. Loud? The type of batteries require water cooling to be safe. And you cannot implement a backup generator with TESLA and have solar/battery participate. Not designed for it.

My preferred multi-level solution (which we designed and sell) is a Hybrid Energy system. You combine Solar and Battery and an inverter with backup generator.

Solar has 2 functions: 1) It saves you money all year long. 2) It provides the general power you need when the utility is not there.

Battery/Inverter: It is immediate backup power. Our systems switch in about 1/60th of a second. So you don't really lose power. The batteries also absorb excess solar energy when "off-grid".

Generator: It is the power source and grid and solar fail. Yes, solar fails. It fails when it is cloudy and it fails when you use up all of your stored energy. The purpose is to supply power to the house AND recharge the batteries.

How to implement:

If you have a utility connection:

The utility it is your primary source of power. Your solar reduces your demand and you SELL your excess solar. Batteries are used as backup when the utility fails; Solar keeps the batteries full during the day and provides most of the power. The Generator supplements on cloudy days and on high usage days. Since the batteries are not regularly cycled, cheaper good quality AGM batteries are used.

Off-Grid

Solar and Battery is your PRIMARY power. Generator again is to supplement for the cloudy and high usage days. Batteries cycle everyday, so high quality, high cycle batteries (LiFePo4) are recommended.

Low Money: Small Solar/Small Battery/Big Generator

You setup the essential things on the battery/backup so they never fail. Larger higher power items may only be run when the generators runs. This kind of setup can be for both on-grid and off-grid. And you can implement a system for about 1/2 the cost of a full system.

I expect the generator availability, like ammo, will improve in the spring.

As far as implementing a "small portable generator" on a house

1) Get a 240VAC Generator
2) Get a manual Transfer switch
3) Setup a sub-panel for your essential items

Champion makes a Good quality Generator in the 7-8kW price range.

I would go with the whole house generator. It will add value to your house and its proven technology. It won't be obsolete in 10 years unless they do something incredible with battery backups. The installation price you have to pay is insane. I would go with the generator and try to find wiggle room on the install price.

For a small generator (up to 20kW) and using a sub-panel, I like this one, available from Home Despot

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-100-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fused-Emergency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10323R/100171587

You come out of your main electrical box on a 100 AMP breaker, go to the transfer switch. You go from the middle on the TS to your subpanel. Put your most needed 120 and 240 items in the sub-panel.

Generator connects to third terminal. I would connect the generator side to an outlet and have a connector cable to the portable generator.

Here is a good model

https://amazon.com/Champion-100110-9200W-11500W-Generator/dp/B01HDYW210/

or if you have a BIG propane tank

https://amazon.com/Champion-8000-Watt-Portable-Generator-Electric/dp/B01FAWMMPS/

Not cheap, BUT they include an oil pump and spin on filter for extended runs

https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/portable-generators/xg-series/xg10000e

Generac also has their relatively new PWRCell product. It's a modular battery system, from 3 to 6 batteries, which helps with cost.

https://www.generac.com/all-products/clean-energy/pwrcell


Lee

Inverter $3125 (7.6kW)
Battery Holder $2600
Each Battery $1810 (only 3.6kWh, 2.88 usable)
Transfer Switch $688

Plus installation

Have you worked with a PWRCell, red-beard? I truly would like to know your opinion. ...

Lee

Thank you Red beard for this and the above. I'd like to follow your "full house hybrid" recommendation, but that is a thread I'll revisit on a future house. This is just for now on a lower budget as a response to more and more outages. I cannot do much about the overcharging on the full house gen - the price they quote is the price most quote here ...

I'm doing basically *exactly* what you said above. Except in terms of availability, the choice was the champion unit (gasoline only) or another brand equally recommended (Irving?) for $200 more but tri fuel, and I would rather use propane - more power and it doesn't go bad like gasoline, and also is good for my BBQ ;-) 240V 30W + cable... Once installed, including generator, cable, panel repair (other issue not up to code), transfer switch, <$4000. More palatable. I will build a platform for the genny and eventually buy a silencer box to put around it.

That Generac XG10000E is what I have but an older model I bought maybe twelve or thirteen years ago. I removed the wheels and made a pad for it on the side of my garage with a cover. I have a small battery tender on it & Sta-Bil Marine in the fuel when I leave fuel in it. It's been there for ten+ years and starts & performs flawlessy every time. It uses an 18 hp. Subaru engine & is loud just like other Generac generators.

I am certified by Generac for PWRcell.

So far in 2020, I have bought $1.2m from Generac.

I have purchased exactly $0.00 of PWRcell product.

In my opinion, it is a product for wealthy green loving people who don't need air conditioning during a utility outage.

Next year, we will do $7m to $8m in sales and installation. 100% Generac Product.

If you have NG at your house: 22kw/200amp Xfer switch, one (1) smart management module, and complete installation would run just under $11,000, assuming that the generator can be placed within 20 feet of the electrical panel and within 20' of the gas meter. This assumes that you are willing to wait 16 to 20 weeks for installation.

The Gen and Xfer switch should be just under $5k. The installation will be between $6k and $7k. We get another $550 for permitting.

DL

[QUOTE=red-beard;11136180]On Generators - That cost is WAY too high. A 20kW install should be around $8-10K with everything. The 20kW Generator retails for around $4500-$5000K with a transfer switch. The Electrical install should be about $1-2K. Generator install is SIMPLE. The "hard" part is the gas line, since it usually requires piping and trenching. And either a propane tank or a new gas meter. Most house meters are too small for a generator.

Do you do residential home standby power or strictly commercial?

Do you know Wes and Matt ? They are pretty good at residential home standby power in Houston Metro... :D

DL

We manufacture hybrid solar energy systems which include solar, batteries, inverter and a generator. We contract with solar installers and electricians to install.

Thank you very much for the information, DL! What are your thoughts on the Generac generator products? Does your company do residential installations or commercial too?

Lee

Wow. I can't imagine not having electricians and installers inhouse. The scheduling alone would be a nonstarter for us...

We use three different local gas companies for NG hookups and only one company for tank burial and initial fill. But that is the only part of the operation that we do not control 100%.

But that will soon end. We recently bought a Vermeer CTX160 to put 38kw generators (1,800 lbs) up on 6' tig welded steel stands (that we have to locally manufacture) and a "No Ramp Trailer" to move it on. We can trench with it and, obviously dig with it. We hope to bring all gas inside this coming Fall.

I don't know how you do it. We interview these gas plumbers and they all insist that they want to partner with us. Then after vetting them, checking licensing and insurance, we send over an order for 4 or 5 jobs for the next week (we pull the gas permits for them) and they quickly decide that they can't help us and they aren't willing to add a truck and crew to help us with our jobs...

DL

Residential only. (thats kind of a lie...it just depends)

Take a look at Generac stock performance over the last 5 years. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat3.gif

Generac is a ruthless, cut throat company that is very very good at what they do. They are very good at business. We are prohibited from using any other generator supplier as a condition of our agreement.

Others had mentioned a portable as an alternative. If I was going to go with a manual transfer switch to my panel, I would buy a Generac XD5000E. It is a diesel and is strong enough to run a MODERN 2.5 ton central air unit when paired with a soft start module. This is what we do for people when they have zero side lot setbacks, no natural gas at the house and the entire front yard is driveway (impossible to put a 500 gallon propane tank in the ground). The generator is $3,700.00. Lowes or HD can special order one for you. We seldom go this route. Our demographic is looking for automatic whole home standby power and they want turnkey installation, annual maintenance and 24/7 monitoring via Generac Fleet cellular.

DL

Just for closure, for someone on a budget ($3900 in the end) I'm reasonably happy with the outcome... my entire main floor is powered (fridge, microwave, lights, TV, PCs, wifi, 2 BR, garage, outside...) I got a trifuel 7500w generator that goes into the new panel, and there I can pick and choose my circuits out of the 10, or turn them all on one after another, and reverse the operation when power returns. There's power level meters on each bank of 5 it seems. It's all manual... Tested OK, it works. The generator itself is not Honda quiet but 1/3 of the price I wasn't gonna pay $4500 for a Honda 7000i that gets used 3x a year. Loud is fine for daytime operation, I will build a wood cage around it to drop the noise a little but not so tight to cause heating issues.. Starting on propane is way trickier than on gas, you must use the choke first a few seconds, then stop, then start again but immediately turn off the choke... I Guess I will use this on propane for small durations and go gas for longer planned outages, let the gas run out and switch back to propane...

Wish I could have done a full house gen but in my city, with code issues (proximity to windows and neighbor) and closeness of neighbors, the trenching alone to connect it and supply with with natural gas would have been cost prohibitive.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1609185478.jpg

Right 2 are main panel (too full) and subpanel... left of that the splice box. Then leftmost is the new panel with my 10 gen circuits (line/off/gen positions), the gen plugs under that with a big 50 amp twist and lock plug.

outdoor enclosure for portable gennie
 

Rather than a new thread I'll tack onto this one. I've been storing the Honda gennie in my basement and dragging it out when needed. Time now to make it easier on myself.

I see all manner of outdoor enclosures for gennies but dang they're expensive. Sure $400 to protect a $3000 gennie isn't much but day-umm.

Have any of you built your own? Are there any climate issues I need to concern myself with other than keeping it dry?

TIA

+1 on the above, althoughmore concerned about noise abatement than protection. What have you guys built, if anything ? what works ? PG&E line set a backyard on fire near my house last week, it's gonna be a fun summer.

PS: for giggles, the transfer panel in the above pic was defective. The first time I needed this, it kept tripping the generator. They came back and redid it all for free...
Now I think I got my money's worth but damn that generator is loud !