Porsche 959 Rally car question

[kevin993]

Does anyone know the history of this museum Porsche 959 rally car shown below? (I think all the photos are of the same car.) It has been displayed in various places around the world, but clearly doesn't carry full race livery. Wondering if it is the 1985 Egypt Pharoah Rally winner. Also wondering if it is the 1985 #187 driven by Jochen Mass. They may be the same car.

Does anyone have a list of chassis numbers for the 959 rally cars? I'm also trying to figure out which car it was that burned to the ground for Jacky Ickx in the 1985 Egypt rally. Somehow I can't account for that car.

Thank you!

[M.D. Holloway]

Wayne's garage?

[oldE]

I think you've got two different cars there. The car in the second and fifth images shows no scoop over the windscreen and the front mud flaps are mounted to the rocker panels, not in the wheel wells. That probably doesn't help a lot.

Best
Les

[M.D. Holloway]

Yup different cars for sure. Even the paint is close, but not exact.

[kevin993]

There ought to be six cars - three in 1985 and three in 1986. Seems like I can find:
1985 - #185 - private hands, in LA
1985 - #186 - ?
1985 - #187 - ?
1986 - #186 - winner - museum
1986 - #185 - second place - museum
1986 - #187 - sixth place - museum

One of the 1985 cars burned with Jacky Ickx at the wheel in the Egypt rally in October 1985. Don't know which one that was.

I'm missing two, so I had presumed that the two in the photos were the same car, but in different liveries/restorations at different times. If they're different, then I have three cars (two in the photos above and the one written off in the fire) but two missing chassis.

Maybe there were more than six built?
Still don't know which one is the 1985 Egypt rally winner.

[LWJ]

I have seen pieces of one at Emery's in Mcminnnville, Oregon. May have just been the fiberglass exterior. We talked at length, as I completely geeked out on these cars as a kid. Forgot the story. There were some sort of hush hush type thing. Maybe one of them isn't what it is being represented as?

I suspect the whole story will come out here within a day or so. Love these cars!

[kevin993]

Will be interesting to see where this thread goes. Just to document what I'm seeing:

1985 - #185


1985 - Pharoah Rally poster


1986 - #185


1985 - #186


1986 - #187

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by kevin993

Wondering if it is the 1985 Egypt Pharoah Rally winner. Also wondering if it is the 1985 #187 driven by Jochen Mass. They may be the same car.

Not sure if it's helpful in your search but here is what I could find for the driver pairings for the 959s during that time (Egypt + Dakar):

1985 Dakar (N/A engines):
Ickx / Brasseur - DNF (#185 car).
Metge / Lemoyne - DNF (#186 car).
Mass / Kiefer - DNF (#187 car).

1985 Egypt - Pharaoh's Rally (turbo engines):
Al Hajri / Spiller - 1st place (#2 car).
Ickx / Unger - DNF/fire (#1 car).

1986 Dakar (turbo engines):
Metge / Lemoyne - 1st place (#186 car).
Ickx / Brasseur - 2nd place (#185 car).
Kussmaul / Unger - 6th place (#187 car).

[kevin993]

Bumping with a video found on Youtube of German coverage of the 1985 Egypt rally. Ickx start and fire at about 2:30 mark. The winning car shows up a few times, such as at the 15:15 mark and 23:40 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ4k-jZPppE

[look 171]

You go to Patrick Long's show down by the port this summer? I have no idea how to even spell it? There was one there with a b ig sign that said " Do not remove original dirt". I think it was 1985 dirt from racing?

[kevin993]

Originally Posted by look 171

You go to Patrick Long's show down by the port this summer? I have no idea how to even spell it? There was one there with a b ig sign that said " Do not remove original dirt". I think it was 1985 dirt from racing?

Yep - that's #185 from 1985 with Ickx/Brasseur. Has been on display at PECLA for a while now. Was owned by the museum until 2014 when a private customer bought it and sent it to Gunnar Racing in Florida to get primped and back on the road. They had it on display in the Gunnar area at Rennsport Reunion V in 2015.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by kevin993

Bumping with a video found on Youtube of German coverage of the 1985 Egypt rally. Ickx start and fire at about 2:30 mark. The winning car shows up a few times, such as at the 15:15 mark and 23:40 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ4k-jZPppE

Very cool. Man, they really had the suspension tuning nailed down on that thing.

Here's what was left of the #1 car (pic from Kussmaul's book):

I believe the inset pic is what remained of the gearbox.

[kevin993]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

Very cool. Man, they really had the suspension tuning nailed down on that thing.

Here's what was left of the #1 car (pic from Kussmaul's book):

I believe the inset pic is what remained of the gearbox.

Quite a fire - I have to believe it was written off, but can't figure out what car it was. Should be either the #186 or #187 run in the 1985 Paris Dakar.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by kevin993

Quite a fire - I have to believe it was written off, but can't figure out what car it was. Should be either the #186 or #187 run in the 1985 Paris Dakar.

No, it was the #1 car of Ickx/Unger during the `85 Pharroah's Rally. Same car in the vid you posted above.

[kevin993]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

No, it was the #1 car of Ickx/Unger during the `85 Pharroah's Rally. Same car in the vid you posted above.

Yes, but I think that only three 959 rally cars existed at that point. All three were run earlier in the year at Paris Dakar as numbers 185, 186 and 187. I know where 185 is now, so presuming that 186 and 187 were used as the two cars entered during the Egypt rally as #1 and #2. #2 won and #1 burned. I just don't know which car was which and where the "winner" is now.

I believe that three new cars were used for the 1986 Paris Dakar and also run as 185, 186 and 187. Porsche finished 1-2-6.

I think that a total of 6 959 rally cars were built.

A few assumptions and presumptions buried in there, but trying to fill those gaps. Thanks for the interest and observations.

[kevin993]

With the help of a friend, the working theory is as follows:

- based on plate numbers is that the #187 1985 car became the Egypt rally winner and the #186 car was the one that burned.

- the pics I posted in the first part of this thread are indeed two different cars. One with the #185 numbering is the 1985 Pharoah Rally winner and the ones with no numbering are press/media photos in advance of the 1986 season.

Still don't have any chassis numbers though.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by kevin993

Yes, but I think that only three 959 rally cars existed at that point. All three were run earlier in the year at Paris Dakar as numbers 185, 186 and 187. I know where 185 is now, so presuming that 186 and 187 were used as the two cars entered during the Egypt rally as #1 and #2. #2 won and #1 burned. I just don't know which car was which and where the "winner" is now.

I believe that three new cars were used for the 1986 Paris Dakar and also run as 185, 186 and 187. Porsche finished 1-2-6.

I think that a total of 6 959 rally cars were built.

A few assumptions and presumptions buried in there, but trying to fill those gaps. Thanks for the interest and observations.

Ah yes (duh). Was getting the rally dates jumbled there. They were the #18X cars for the 1985 Dakar, then #1 & #2 cars for the 1985 Egypt rally, then back to the #18X cars again for the following Dakar in 1986.
I guess those 3 initial DNF's in early `85 really lit the fire, so to speak, lol...

Originally Posted by kevin993

With the help of a friend, the working theory is as follows:

- based on plate numbers is that the #187 1985 car became the Egypt rally winner and the #186 car was the one that burned.

- the pics I posted in the first part of this thread are indeed two different cars. One with the #185 numbering is the 1985 Pharoah Rally winner and the ones with no numbering are press/media photos in advance of the 1986 season.

Still don't have any chassis numbers though.

Yeah, chassis numbers would certainly make things easier! I know Ickx stuffed the original 185 car pretty good in the `85 Dakar (hitting a boulder or some such) but not sure if it was a total write-off or not. If so (big "if"), then the #1 car for the following Egypt rally would've been a new chassis and not re-numbered then? I'm so confused.

[Deancrew7]

This image showcases the PRODRIVE 959. Easy to identify from the other Factory cars as is has a unique air inlet at the top front of the roof . . . Added on Scoops on the side rear quarters, and most easy to see, the graphics on the front fenders are unique from the other Rothmans cars with a smaller red stripe and a very noticable gap between the other gold stripe. This is how it ran originally in the Pharoahs Rally and won as #2 and the number 1 car . . the first true Turbo 959 burned down due to a holed oil cooler. this car only ran 2-3 times with Prodrive before going back to the factory and the paint scheme has never changed

[look 171]

Which is the one with original mud on the car from its racing days. I have seen that a couple times. I think that belongs to Porsche?

[faverymi]