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-   -   Why does America have the highest incarceration rate... (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/1097397-why-does-america-have-highest-incarceration-rate.html)

id10t 07-08-2021 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by svandamme (Post 11385156)
1 Because you cannot win a war on drugs, repression of something in high demand will only serve to make it more profitable and as profitability goes up, so does the incentive to smuggle and the corruption goes up with it.

Portugal had a drug endemic, when they came out of their dictatorship...and it remained problematic till they decided to change it up and stop treating users as criminals but as patients..
The right wing balked at the idea , but when it was implemented , Portugal got it it under control, drug usage dropped, they have low Overdose death rates and drug related crime.
They have had several right wing governments since, but none of them even thought about overturning the socialist idea of helping the addicts instead of repressing and jailing them. That should tell you something.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it

It does not work to work on the supply side if there's an endless demand.
Low Supply/ High Demand = High profit

Clearly the only way to deal with it, is to work on reducing the demand.

Listing drug busts in a monetary value also doesn't help, because it simply advertises "hey, this is good business"
The drug lords giggle a bit when they hear so much value was destroyed. because to them it means the stuff that DID get through became more valuable.

If anything the supply that got busted should be tested, certified, and sold for cheap on the street instead.
Now THAT would piss off the cartels big style
They would send their hitman over the border to shoot your politicians, and that's the obvious reason nobody does it.

2 If you make the incarceration a profitable business, then that as well opens up the way to corruption because well, those who make profit see no benefit in fixing the problem.
And obviously nobody has figured out to make a buck off social work, else that would be a way to fix the problem, but plenty people are making profit off incarceration, either through running the prisons or by providing related services.

Clearly that's part of the problem, because where you have profit, you will have lobbyists to sway politicians in sustaining that business.
I'm sure if the incarceration biz stands to be wiped out due to a change in policy.. the Capitalists behind it would probably help the Sicario's sent by the Cartel to help em schwack the politicians responsible

They both have a vested interest in keeping things running as they are.

I'm sure they,Cartel bosses and prison bosses a like, all vacation in the same resorts over in Europe, hang out with the Oligarchs and other big money scum


1&2 : Get the profit out of the equation and it goes away.
That describes the hard drugs - coke, heroin, etc. And to some degree pot running in the late 60s and on.

But a lot of the anti drug laws (and gun control laws while we are at it) were put in place to control those who used them - the poor, the blacks, and other minorities.

wdfifteen 07-08-2021 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by svandamme (Post 11385156)

Portugal had a drug endemic, when they came out of their dictatorship...and it remained problematic till they decided to change it up and stop treating users as criminals but as patients..
The right wing balked at the idea , but when it was implemented , Portugal got it it under control, drug usage dropped, they have low Overdose death rates and drug related crime.
They have had several right wing governments since, but none of them even thought about overturning the socialist idea of helping the addicts instead of repressing and jailing them. That should tell you something.
Yep. As I said, we don't have a huge prison population because we have too much freedom, it's (partially) because we have too little.

svandamme 07-09-2021 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantilla (Post 11385162)
In France, almost everybody is French.

Clearly you know nothing about France.

svandamme 07-09-2021 01:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by id10t (Post 11385917)
That describes the hard drugs - coke, heroin, etc. And to some degree pot running in the late 60s and on.

But a lot of the anti drug laws (and gun control laws while we are at it) were put in place to control those who used them - the poor, the blacks, and other minorities.
Same discussion
Those anti drug laws repress supply at the end stage of the distribution stage
But the demand remains exactly the same

As long as that demand remains
The potential for profit remains
And where potential for profit exists the supply chain will materialize.

America is THE place for capitalism.. surely y'all can understand simple supply and demand mechanisms?

IF somebody wants to buy it
THEN somebody will find a way to sell it

What better way for somebody to make a buck in a minority group, of poor upbringing, then supply something high demand with high profit margins??????

So knocking down the supply side hasn't worked before
doesn't work now
Won't work tomorrow either.

And clearly arresting everybody for possession or using drugs doesn't work either.
Drug users are beaten up from two sides.. by the drugs, by their own government.

How long before somebody figures out that arresting people is not a solution to a problem of socio-economic nature.

KFC911 07-09-2021 02:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by svandamme (Post 11386224)
...
How long before somebody figures out that arresting people is not a solution to a problem of socio-economic nature.
Your posts have been spot on in this thread. This is no big secret, and lots of folks have figured it out. Unfortunately, we're not the ones putting the $$$ in our pockets (on the enforcement side) or trying to get elected (again).

Follow the $$$...

Bob Kontak 07-09-2021 03:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by id10t (Post 11385917)
That describes the hard drugs - coke, heroin, etc.
Cocaine?

Cocaine is a hard drug but people will not normally steal from you to get money for it.

It's not as strong an addiction pull as heroin or fentanyl.

drcoastline 07-09-2021 04:16 AM
Lawyers and politicians.

wdfifteen 07-09-2021 04:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by svandamme (Post 11386224)
And clearly arresting everybody for possession or using drugs doesn't work either.
Drug users are beaten up from two sides.. by the drugs, by their own government.

How long before somebody figures out that arresting people is not a solution to a problem of socio-economic nature.
It’s not just drugs. We imprison people for being mentally ill. If a schizophrenic commits a crime he doesn’t go into the health care system, he goes into the criminal justice system.

Dantilla 07-09-2021 05:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by svandamme (Post 11386220)
Clearly you know nothing about France.
Correct!
I took two years of French in high school, but I didn't learn the language as much as I learned how to get an "A" from Mrs. Nightengale.

Study vs. Schmooze. Schmooze won.

T77911S 07-09-2021 07:56 AM
criminals are NOT deterred by our courts, laws or jails.

creaturecat 07-09-2021 08:19 AM
kick ‘em while they’re down. it’s the American way.
the profit motive sweetens the deal.

GH85Carrera 07-09-2021 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdfifteen (Post 11386296)
It’s not just drugs. We imprison people for being mentally ill. If a schizophrenic commits a crime he doesn’t go into the health care system, he goes into the criminal justice system.
We certainly need to figure out some solution to mental illness. No sane person wants to be homeless. Certainly there are some homeless that are there because of bad luck and bad decisions in life. Lots more because they are just nucking futs.

There is no real long term funny farms anymore. They were all closed and now the crazy people just go fee.

I honestly have no answer as to what is the best option. It will for sure take a lot of money, and every big federal program is just a boondoggle and poorly run waste of money. Look at the VA, trying to treat veterans that truly deserve treatment for their service. When vets have to wait for over a year to see a doctor, it is just pitiful. Look at Medicare and Medicaid, total fudge cluster of wasted money.

I am on Medicare now and pay my bill electronically. They send me a paper bill that is several pages, and then even in Chinese, Spanish, and who know how many other languages. It can't hard to put a field on my bill that I only speak English and don't waste the paper and postage for multi language instructions. Never gonna happen. Billions of pages of paper get sold to them from some supplier that want to increase the printing. Or better yet, send it via secure email link.

RANDY P 07-09-2021 08:46 AM
Would anyone here want a halfway house in the neighborhood or a big jail nearby? Of course not.

People like that disrupt society, why they aren't out there.

rjp

Tervuren 07-09-2021 09:00 AM
The generation raised taken away from their localized disciplinary structures correspond to an increased rate of incarceration as they came of age.

Is it just coincidence?

RANDY P 07-09-2021 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creaturecat (Post 11386523)
kick ‘em while they’re down. it’s the American way.
the profit motive sweetens the deal.
You're more than welcome to donate your time and energy helping 'em.

Go for it.

rjp

Baz 07-09-2021 10:32 AM
Poor parenting

Or

Lack of parenting

In addition to lax punishment for offenders

Especially repeat offenders

cockerpunk 07-09-2021 10:37 AM
crime has been dropping at an extraordinary rate for a generation, but if you read the **** in here ...

by almost every metric recordable, crime is down by HALF since the 1990s.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

why are incarcerations going up at a crazy rate while crimes is actually going down at an even crazier rate?

varmint 07-09-2021 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cockerpunk (Post 11386659)
crime has been dropping at an extraordinary rate for a generation, but if you read the **** in here ...

by almost every metric recordable, crime is down by HALF since the 1990s.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

why are incarcerations going up at a crazy rate while crimes is actually going down at an even crazier rate?



Is your real name Fox Butterfield?

Tobra 07-09-2021 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tervuren (Post 11386566)
The generation raised taken away from their localized disciplinary structures correspond to an increased rate of incarceration as they came of age.

Is it just coincidence?
In my experience, there is no such thing as a coincidence

stealthn 07-09-2021 11:30 AM
Just look at the Florida Woman thread, bout sums it up…

Rodney Nelson 07-09-2021 08:57 PM
One reason is there is no reform while people are in prison. They should have to go through reform and preparation to get out. Need to show they can get a job, or they have to learn a new trade, need to get rehabilitation for any and all reasons someone is in jail. They need to slowly move out to be on there own. transition apartments, etc. This will stop people from going back to their previous ways. Imagine this, sex offender goes to jail for 7 years and is not required to do one day of rehabilitation while in jail.... crazy.

rfuerst911sc 07-10-2021 05:12 AM
What is the intended result of incarceration ? Is it solely to punish the individual for the crime ? Is it to punish and attempt to rehabilitate ? I don't think the majority of prisoners are provided a chance to rehabilitate . And to be honest I am not sure how much effort if any should be provided .

The saying doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insane comes to mind . The majority of US citizens go through life as law abiding and give more to society then they take ( my opinion ) . But a certain % can't/don't and it is for a variety of reasons . That % of individuals is made up of a cross section of society meaning it is all races and economic means .

It is obvious for some criminals the justice system is a revolving door . Do we just lock them up and throw away the key ? Do we execute to eliminate that individual ? Do we attempt to rehabilitate ? I don't pretend to have any answers but as a law abiding citizen I do have concerns.

flatbutt 07-10-2021 05:17 AM
Rehabilitation has always been a Liberal dream. Imprisonment has always been intended to keep bad actors away from good people. Having never been imprisoned I can only imagine that inside prison walls every day is like "Escape from New York" written small.

Nick Triesch 07-10-2021 08:05 AM
A good friend of mine was a high ranking government INS agent. He told me that 30% of the prison population was illegal folks . People do not realize a lot of crime comes from these people. So, there is your reason.

kach22i 07-10-2021 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1990C4S (Post 11385139)
Because of guns, drugs, and 'the war on drugs'. Beyond that it's parf...
Yep.

2016
How the war on drugs affected incarceration rates
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/jul/10/cory-booker/how-war-drugs-affected-incarceration-rates/
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1625934983.jpg
Quote:
In 1980, about 41,000 people were incarcerated for drug crimes, according to the Sentencing Project. In 2014, that number was about 488,400 — a 1,000 percent increase.

thor66 07-10-2021 12:36 PM
what are the stats. on re-offending?

by state; by crime; etc.

wdfifteen 07-10-2021 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc (Post 11387331)
What is the intended result of incarceration ? Is it solely to punish the individual for the crime ? Is it to punish and attempt to rehabilitate ?
I don't think there is a coherent purpose for incarceration in this country.
I don't think enough emphasis is placed on the needs of law abiding citizens. That means:

1. Not taxing us to death to giving free room and board to the incarcerated for extended periods of time
2. Returning the incarcerated to society equipped to function in society as non-criminals.

Instrument 41 07-10-2021 02:28 PM
All of this talk about Reforming or rehabilitating in prison. What is to to reform if it had never been formed? That's why they are in prison. You can make something of an individual if it wasn't there in the first place.

Fast Freddy 944 07-11-2021 02:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by recycled sixtie (Post 11385110)
in the world? Try and keep this out of Parf.
Fatherless families, liberal puke teachers teaching our kids to be stupid, liberal lawyers letting animals out into the streets. liberals in office. parf away..;)

911Ghia 07-11-2021 04:20 AM
Many parts of the world the police carry fully automatic weapons.

Rich

ben parrish 07-11-2021 04:57 AM
Oh man...in a nut shell....no real moral compass is being taught any longer in much of our nation. I still believe most people are good but the “bad ones” are really bad. By the time they make it to prison, it is most likely too late to rehabilitate most of them because they have little in the way of a clear idea of right and wrong and even less exposure to “why you need to do the right thing”.

rfuerst911sc 07-11-2021 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben parrish (Post 11388257)
Oh man...in a nut shell....no real moral compass is being taught any longer in much of our nation. I still believe most people are good but the “bad ones” are really bad. By the time they make it to prison, it is most likely too late to rehabilitate most of them because they have little in the way of a clear idea of right and wrong and even less exposure to “why you need to do the right thing”.

^^^ A very accurate description !

Seahawk 07-11-2021 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben parrish (Post 11388257)
Oh man...in a nut shell....no real moral compass is being taught any longer in much of our nation. I still believe most people are good but the “bad ones” are really bad. By the time they make it to prison, it is most likely too late to rehabilitate most of them because they have little in the way of a clear idea of right and wrong and even less exposure to “why you need to do the right thing”.
My sister was a prosecutor in South Carolina for over twenty years.

She put some really horrific people away. She said they nearly all shared the same trait: "dead eyes".

In a twist of fate, my son in now a defense attorney in Norfolk. He hasn't worked any heinous cases (yet) but he spends a lot of time in the prison system around Virginia. The stories would be funny if they weren't true, especially the juveniles.

They also share a common trait: They are stupid and they lie with abandon...again, the stories are really funny because the level of idiocy is such that you think they almost want to get caught.

thor66 07-11-2021 12:42 PM
well, if they were smart they'd be white collar criminals

Nick Triesch 07-11-2021 01:58 PM
Really, who cares ?

1990C4S 07-12-2021 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Freddy 944 (Post 11388161)
Fatherless families, liberal puke teachers teaching our kids to be stupid, liberal lawyers letting animals out into the streets. liberals in office. parf away..;)
So the root cause is lawyers and teachers? Incarceration rate are high because lawyers are getting criminals out of jail. Got it.

T77911S 07-12-2021 05:56 AM
cut one nut off first offense, the other for the second and the hot dog off for the 3rd,.


crime would go down.

we problem have the nicest and easiest prison system in the world.

red 928 07-12-2021 06:49 AM
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/1-600-canadians-held-in-foreign-prisons-majority-in-the-u-s-1.2253459
Overall, 1,590 Canadians are in prison outside the country, according to figures provided by Canada's Foreign Affairs department, accurate to Oct. 10.
The bulk of them — 1,097 — are behind bars in the United States. The rest are in prisons in more than 85 other countries.


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