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Interesting article about Wikipedia via the Nazis

Quote:

One Woman’s Mission to Rewrite Nazi History on Wikipedia
Ksenia Coffman’s fellow editors have called her a vandal and a McCarthyist. She just wants them to stop glorifying fascists—and start citing better sources.

https://www.wired.com/story/one-womans-mission-to-rewrite-nazi-history-wikipedia/

It's a long article, but very interesting. It centers around a Russian woman that is an editor on WP, and what she saw as disturbing about some of the information/articles surrounding the Nazis and WWII.

To me it's much more of an article about Wikipedia and how even the parts that seem OK could be really out there.

Here's the beginning of the article, but it's much longer.

Quote:

When Ksenia Coffman started editing Wikipedia, she was like a tourist in Buenos Aires in the 1950s. She came to learn the tango, admire the architecture, sip maté. She didn’t know there was a Nazi problem. But Coffman, who was born in Soviet-era Russia and lives in Silicon Valley, is an intensely observant traveler. As she link-hopped through articles about the Second World War, one of her favorite subjects, she saw what seemed like a concerted effort to look the other way about Germany’s wartime atrocities.

Coffman can’t recall exactly when her concern set in. Maybe it was when she read the article about the SS, the Nazi Party’s paramilitary, which included images that felt to her like glamour shots—action-man officers admiring maps, going on parade, all sorts of “very visually disturbing” stuff. Or maybe it was when she clicked through some of the pages about German tank gunners, flying aces, and medal winners. There were hundreds of them, and the men’s impressive kill counts and youthful derring-do always seemed to exist outside the genocidal Nazi cause. What was going on here? Wikipedia was supposed to be all about consensus. Wasn’t there consensus on, you know, Hitler?

A typical person might have thought, Something is wrong on the internet again. What a bummer. Next tab. But Coffman is the person who finishes the thousand-page Holocaust novel. Whatever she chooses to spend her time on—powerlifting, fragrance collecting, denazification—she approaches the assignment like a straight-A student. You can time-travel back and watch her begin. Wikipedia never forgets; it keeps a permanent public record of every change an editor makes.

In early November 2015, you will find K.e.coffman in “20 July plot,” an article about the failed plan by German officers to assassinate Hitler. A sentence has jumped out at her. It says that some of the conspirators came to see the plot as “a grand, if futile gesture” that would save “the honour of themselves, their families, the army and Germany.” The claim isn’t supported by any sources. It’s conjecture, hearsay. And to her it seems strangely flattering.

Coffman navigates over to the Wikipedia article about one of the conspirators—Arthur Nebe, a high-ranking member of the SS. Apart from his role in the plot, Nebe’s main claim to notability is that he came up with the idea of turning vans into mobile gas chambers by piping in exhaust fumes. The article acknowledges both of these facts, along with the detail that Nebe tested his system on the mentally ill. But it also says that he worked to “reduce the atrocities committed,” going so far as to give his bloodthirsty superiors inflated death totals.

Coffman will recall that she feels “totally disoriented.” She cannot believe that an innovator in mass murder would have tried to protect the Jews and other supposed subhumans his troops rounded up. She checks the footnotes. The claim is attributed to War of Extermination, a compendium of academic essays originally published in 1995.

Coffman knows the book is legit, because she happens to have a copy on loan from the library. When she goes to the cited page, she finds a paragraph that appears to confirm all the Wikipedia article’s wild claims. But then she reads the first sentence of the next paragraph: “This is, of course, nonsense.”

The level of bad faith is eye-opening for Coffman. She is “very appalled.” She sees that her confidence in Wikipedia was “very much misplaced.” All it takes to warp historical memory, she realizes, is something this small, achievable for almost anyone with a keyboard. “So few people can have so much impact, it’s a little scary,” she says. She begins to turn a more critical eye to what she sees on Wikipedia. Especially the footnotes.

In a long spree of edits, Coffman cleans up the two articles. She goes to the Talk page for “20 July plot,” where editors debate changes to the main article. She copy-pastes the language about the grand, futile gesture. “I would like to remove this part,” she writes. “Thoughts? Objections?” Another editor voices support. With a click, the paragraph is gone.

Wikipedia serves as a useful START point for research. If I am looking up a celebrity, to see how tall they are, or birthday I likely will believe it.

For anything that is even remotely controversial and has "sides" I become skeptical. Many people work hard trying to pervert the history or reporting of events. Just like the article above, there are people that want to remove the atrocities committed by Japan during WW2 and before, from history.

If facts make a country look bad for any event it will receive a Hollywood level spin, and then outright lies to cover it up and deny any such think.

Tienanmen Square is a classic case. The Chinese government just deny it happened.

Wikipedia co-founder says site is now ‘propaganda’ for left-leaning ‘establishment’

https://nypost.com/2021/07/16/wikipedia-co-founder-says-site-is-now-propaganda-for-left-leaning-establishment/

politifact, factcheck.org all have very real problems. snopes is a clown show behind the scenes.

"I read it on the internet, and lots of smart people post there so that means it's true"
- Homer Simpson

"Coffman navigates over to the Wikipedia article about one of the conspirators—Arthur Nebe, a high-ranking member of the SS. Apart from his role in the plot, Nebe’s main claim to notability is that he came up with the idea of turning vans into mobile gas chambers by piping in exhaust fumes."

-My understanding is that the mobile gas vans were first used in Russia well before that.
-Also, the jet engine was a British invention which was picked up at s tech exchange expo and refined by the Germans for use.

Yep....sure cannot trust Wikipedia for unbiased facts.

Wikipedia is only good for basic information. If you want a good laugh search "The Big Lie".

Good for looking up movies and tv shows. It can be a good place to go as you can go to the list of references and check them out.

Wikipedia does have one very good feature.
The ability to look back at the edits.

If something makes the news, odds are, it entered an edit war.

You can look at what the article was before the subject hit the news.
I've frequently found the edit war started a day or two before the subject made the news.
Almost as if someone connected with the news was wanting wiki-pedia to back them up ahead of coming out with their narrative.
But the edits show what it was for any interested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by john70t (Post 11515738)

The reason for the vans was that bullets are expensive and the men doing the slaughter had a high alcoholism and suicide rate.. In other words they fell apart mentally. Even Himmler became naucesous when he toured a Concentration camp.

The people doing the slaughter were ordinary people...who had a job to do..as legally ordered by the government..

Vell Willy we exceeded our quota heute by 6000 Jews ..

There is not one shred of evidence that Hitler ever ordered or knew about the Holocaust..the only happenstance evidence is that a switchboard operator at the Fuehrer's hdqrts overheard a Death camp commandant tell Hitlers COS Borman that they had murdered so many thousands of Jews...Borman admonished him to never speak about it over the phone again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr (Post 11515744)

Wikipedia is only good for basic information. .

they are about as accurate and unbiased as "snopes"

You had better know your history the good and the bad of it...or you can be easily lied to..

It you expunge the truth about your history you are lost...you have to face reality or you become delusional... where the same kind of horrors can and will be repeated.

In life you do have to face unpleasant facts...about yourself.

The thing about Wikipedia is most topics I could go in and edit myself wit any bias I want.
Until someone elsee comes along and edits it to something else.
And all of that would be in the record.
It makes it far more useful than snopes.

Now some topics are "locked down", and depending on the onions of those with the keys there may or may not be a smell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric 951 (Post 11516698)

they are about as accurate and unbiased as "snopes"

Quote:

Originally Posted by tabs (Post 11516687)

There is not one shred of evidence that Hitler ever ordered or knew about the Holocaust..the only happenstance evidence is that a switchboard operator at the Fuehrer's hdqrts overheard a Death camp commandant tell Hitlers COS Borman that they had murdered so many thousands of Jews...Borman admonished him to never speak about it over the phone again.

I don't think I would use a lack of evidence to say that Hitler didn't order it or know about it. I would be comfortable saying "there is no physical evidence" but that's as far as I'd be willing to go.

And apparently, it's contentious among historians.

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/21/world/hitler-s-genocide-order-5-days-after-pearl-harbor.html

Personally I wouldn't trust any company to keep it's own legal records.

Quote:

Originally Posted by masraum (Post 11516713)

There is no doubt that Hitler did order it, most likely in a one on one conversation with Himmler..

I explained in a Post on this Thread that seems to have gone missing?? That Hitler decided on the Final Solution in December of 1940...where he said that the Final Solution was being forced upon him by the Jews running the USA and Britain by prolonging their war against him. Before the war the SS and Zionist's collaborated with each other to have Je emigrate to Palestine..which the Brits who occupied Palestine did everything they could to discourage. And the Nazis even contemplated deporting the Jews to Madagascar.. So the Final Solution as it's title belies was not settled upon beofre 1940.

About this time Hitler called in his generals and told them of his decision to invade Russia and that it was going to be a war of unparalleled brutality.. The Germans were going to remove the peoples who lived in Russia to be repopulated by Germans.. Lebenstrum...living room for the German people so that they could fulfill their destiny. Jews and Communists were the first on the list..to that end they set up 4 Einstatz Gruppen that was to follow behind the army and murder people wholesale. It soon became evident that bullets were expensive and the men pulling the triggers had a high alcoholism and suicide rate..so they developed the Carbon Monoxide vans..

The Death Camps were organized by Reinhardt Heydrich #2 SS guy and laid out at the Wansse Conference in Jan 42. Adolf Eichman was the master of the train schedules. Only one copy of the transcript of that conference survived the war..the one thing Eichman complained about was that his trains coming from France were never full.. it seems that the German occupying France just didn't have their hearts into the endeavor.. and for the most part the Jews on the trains from France were not French Jews but Jewish refugees from other countries..

To that end when the Germans invaded the Baltic countries in 41 they found that the Latvians had more zeal in murdering their Jewish neighbors than the Germans did.

This sounds like a great parf topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by john70t (Post 11516804)

This sounds like a great parf topic.

I tend to agree 110% that the subject of Wiki bending and obdurating history is a political subject. It goes to the heart of the cancel culture and if it is too sensitive it will burn our pretty lil ears... we must be PC and not be offensive...

Unfortunately the world is pretty dam offensive..and cares not about you pretty lil ears getting scorched.

As far as my expo-say it is just a recitation of the facts as they happened. There is nothing political nor religious about it.. it is just the way it was...

I bring into the light the truth exposing ignorant misinformation and misconceptions for what they are..

The defining parameter if it is political or religious is when one is advocating for a particular political point of view.

If for instance one says the Democrats are for the "Build It Back Better Bill" that is a statement of fact and is in no way advocating a political position one way or the other. It is not an open for debate statement. It is reality.

When a person reads into it a political purpose that says more about the readers state of mind than authors intent..it is the reader who bends the purpose for their own purposes. As in it maybe an inconvenient truth that the reader does not want known or wants to deny exists.

Just my humble opinion: There's no way Hitler didn't OK the final solution. What's not known with 100% accuracy - Was it his idea? Although people have argued that he described it in his book Mein Kampf (My Struggle).

Regardless he was the leader of Germany at the time and therefore responsible for what happened at that scale.

Was he responsible for the actions of individual or groups of soldiers in the field?
No but the Holocaust was conducted on a grand scale that could not have been possible without the approval and support of the leadership of the country.