Fascinating as always Jeff. Thanks.

You are of course going to exhaustively photograph and document this build. (Hint, hint)


Please?

Best
Les

I wonder if they used to make the kits a lot closer to the 95% and have reduced the amount of work done due to demand and so they could get away with it (not to mention to save costs).

It would have been cheaper considering the man hours to complete to buy a store bought ready made from them. Then you just saunter out to the range and shoot the thing. You can get a lot of shooting in for those 200 man hours..

Jeff, I'm searching for the website but getting all kinds of hits other than Ressel's. Help?

the striping on that bottom gun is just gorgeous

Ressel sold the shop many years ago, so that's why you won't find it related to his name. Here is a link to the current shop:

http://www.thehawkenshop.com

And yes, I'll take some pics and post them.

If any of the BP shooters here need/want it, I was given a single hold .451 round ball mold w/ grips etc when I got my 1858. Send me a PM.

Here are some photos of the kit, alongside a finished example from the Lyman kit. It looks far better in the photos than it does in detail, "up close and personal". Where the Lyman kit was advertised as "95% inletted", it was actually 100% - everything fit into its mortise with no additional inletting whatsoever. This one makes a similar claim, "95% inletted", but absolutely nothing fits into its mortice. Not even close. I wish I could capture just how poorly things fit, but the camera just doesn't seem to do that very well.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1647127143.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1647127143.jpg

You'll notice that some of the inletting isn't even started, like for the two barrel keys that hold it in place. Less obvious are things like the under rib on the barrel is too long, on both ends, and will need to be cut back. They make one design - these are all the same - and it has to be cut, so why not go that extra mile (more like half inch) and cut them all where they need to be cut? I don't get it.

The tang piece, into which the hook on the breach end of the barrel fits, is supposed to be octagon in shape, matching the barrel. The rough casting wasn't even close. I had to file it to shape. And that was after working the hook on the barrel and the square mortise in the tang so that they would actually mate together - the hook wouldn't even fit through the hole.

Lots of silly little details like that just aren't finished, where on kits costing half the price (or less) they are, and fit wonderfully right out of the box. All CNC machined, though, which I guess really isn't "correct" for these rifles. And, yes, I guess all of those will always turn out the same, where this one will definitely take on its own personality, instilled through my filing, chiseling, gouging, and sanding. There will not ever be one exactly like it, which was true for the originals. And, in the long run, I think that will ultimately be much more satisfying. Just a lot more work than I anticipated.

Here is an attempt to show one area of the inletting, where the entry thimble and nose piece are supposed to fit on the forend. There should be (and eventually will be) a very distinct ledge, or shoulder, up against which the nose piece will butt (you can see where it is flush on the finished rifle). There is supposed to be a round mortise that accepts the entry thimble, with a shallow flat behind it for the tang on the entry thimble. You can see where that shallow flat is "inletted", but it's only half as wide as it needs to be, not long enough, and too shallow to let it sit flush.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1647127143.jpg

So, this is where I'm starting. I began with the crescent butt plate. I've got a few hours into that already, which is not really apparent in the photos. It was that bad before I started...

That's very disappointing for the money they demand.

Jeff,

Great thread!! I grew up reading about the Mountain Men and their lives West of the Mississippi. I still have my 1970's copy of John Baird's book "Hawken Rifles, the Mountain Mans choice."

One name to add to the above is Jedediah Strong Smith. An early Mountain Man and fur trapper, he was the first white man to trek from the plains over the Rockies and find a route to the Pacific.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedediah_Smith

Cannot wait to see the finished muzzle loader!!

Joe A

I have the TC Hawken as well, .50. Nothing quite as fun as going to the range, and taking a bench between some young folks with their tactical Barbie rifles on either side. I believe "holy schiat!" is the preferred response when I set the thunderstick off.

My range has a separate section for black powder.

Last time I was at the range we were testing a buddy's new upper on his registered M16 lower and some reloads he did up for his FA 1919A4 but we counter balanced by putting 5 cylinders thru my 1858 BP revolver.

Hey Jeff, maybe I can help a tad since I have "assembled" quite a few of these kits and also several rifles from "scratch" and with the help of my late mentor Doug Knoell learned how to get one done reasonably well. There are some tools which I don't know if you have or not?
- Chisels....NOT the Harbor Freight ones but great ones made in Japan or even Some Chinese ones are good now and they have to be soooooo sharp they can shave the hair on your arm and need to have a dedicated sharpener to be used every few hours when carving any hardwood. I bought a sharpener that uses a turning disk with different pads.
- Inletting stuff....I use a tube of red lip stick although many videos show "smoking" which I am not crazy about.
- Preassembly items....Make sure the trigger assemble will "set" and trip at about 2oz, the hammer assembly so it works at half cock and full cock. If the trigger is not smooth, knock apart the pins and polish where any parts rub together since most triggers are made of cast parts.
- Use "super glue" and glue the tang assembly to the hooked breach AFTER you make sure there is 100% contact (red lip stick). Once the barrel has been fully inlet that joint is easy to break apart.
- Fit the barrel by hand using channel scrapers such as the ones made by the same folks that make checkering tools. That will take days of removing a little at a time. Once the barrel seats well, slide it back to seat the tang fully into the stock. Then put on the "under lugs" and cut their openings. You will need a way to measure the fore end for the pins or whatever holes are used to hold the barrel down and I used a 6 inch piece of aluminum angle stock that one side fits on top of the barrel the other side goes down the side of the fore end.
- Buy NEW files, especially a large very fine flat file to smooth the barrel flats which can take several days before it will be ready for browning or bluing. I usually finish with 600 to 1200 sand paper to make the finish as smooth as possible.
- Use a bore scope to make sure the barrel is clear from muzzle to the breach plug where you can see the light shining in the fire channel. Many people like to polish the inside so the inspection will show if it is needed.
- The butt plate is usually well fit so if it is then fasten it to prevent a chipping of the wood when you test it.
- Fully assemble the rifle before you finish the wood or the metal and test fire it several times making sure the gun goes bang! By this I mean the barrel, tang, hammer assembly and trigger assembly. Worry about the under lug and any parts that attached the cleaning rod later. Make sure the hammer contacts the nipple 100% so you'll get a bang. Now is when you have to move things back and forth or in and out, not after the gun has been finished.
- When use a blue or brown finish use a "gun" degreaser such as that by Beechwood Casey. I bought a gallon of it a few years ago after trying it and then other de-greasers which none worked as well.

As you noted the hook on the breach plug and how it fits into the tang are required to be worked on. That is almost normal now days unless you get a kit by Jim Kibler or one or two others. Many times parts are made to a default and may or not fit right in easy.

Here is a picture (posted before?) of a "kit" I made of an underhammer 45 caliber slug gun that shoots less than 1 MOA at 300 yards. I bought the parts from Pecatonica River and it took me 3 months to finish it completely. Part of that time was doing the 25 coats of clear gloss lacquer.
John


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1647203869.jpg

Thank you so much, John, that is all tremendously helpful advice.

This "kit" is unlike any other I have ever built, including a Thompson Center "Hawken" (we all know it's nothing like a Hawken, but a fine rifle nonetheless), a Dixie Tennessee Mountain Rifle, Dixie 10 gauge double shotgun, and Lyman Great Plains Rifle (a much better "Hawken" than the T/C example) and Great Plains pistol. Each and every one of these kits were far, far more complete with regards to inletting - they essentially required none whatsoever. Their metal parts were also finished to a much higher level, where these are just rough castings. Some very rough.

I'm having very mixed feelings about all of this. I could have purchased all five of those other kits for what I paid for this one. I think calling it a "kit", as a matter of fact, is borderline dishonest. They go so far as to say it can be "assembled" using common hand tools. No way in hell. I will need a full set of inletting tools (on order from Midway), a drill press, and the word "weld" even appears in the instructions. It's no more than a box of rough, unfinished parts. They will eventually "assemble" into a rifle, but there is going to be an awful lot of handwork on each and every individual part before they are ready for "assembly".

This is simply one step away from scratch building. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about that per se. Had I known that going in, I probably would have ordered it anyway. I might have balked a bit at the price, but I would have talked myself into it. It is, after all, the only "real" Hawken available today. I do, however, think they take advantage of that, along with stating that it is an "expert level kit", allowing them to sell a substantially sub-standard level of completeness for much more than everyone else could get away with.

I did manage to fit the butt and toe plates today. The butt plate required a substantial amount of filing just to clean up its mating surfaces enough to be smooth enough to start fitting to the stock. While it doesn't show in the photos, the butt stock itself was not machined to contour all the way across its full width. Only about 1/4" was machined to contour down each side, with about a 1/2" tall ridge left down the center that had to be removed before the butt plate could be fitted. Then, once removed, it was discovered that the contours of the butt plate and butt stock in no way even began to match. There was a good 1/8" gap in about the center of the arc. Probably would have "fit" better if they had just sawed the butt off square.

So, yeah, stuff like that. I'm kind of looking forward to, and am certainly up for the challenge, but I have to wonder how many buy this "kit", open the box, and realize there is no way in hell they can build this rifle. I bet it's actually most. I just wish they were a little more up front about it.

Well Jeff hope I can help. I am guessing several things make this kit expensive, probably the biggest is the cost of the barrel. Depending on who made it and where and how well the rifling is cut it can be a huge expense. I bought a "chunk gun" several years ago that had a Douglas XX 50 caliber stainless barrel (made in 1950) that I found was put together by a fellow in Gas City Indiana. The whole rifle sans scope was offered at $350 plus shipping. When I asked my late mentor if it was a good deal, he yelled at me to hang up, call the seller back since the barrel was worth $3000 give or take a little! Seems Douglas makes very few of these and when I called them to see how to care for a SS barrel the oldest guy there remembered making it and he said that the $3000 price was probably about right...good golly I was shocked. Oh yeah he also said about a 3 year wait to get one if I wanted a replacement! Yikes!
John

They use Rice barrels, either 34" (what I ordered) or 36". Both are tapered octagon, 1 1/8" to 1", and feature the correct 48" twist. Track of the Wolf sells them for $300.

I took delivery of another '74 Sharps last year, from Shilo Sharps. It's their Hartford model, with a 28" half octagon barrel, Hartford collar, and pewter nose cap. I ordered it in .45-2.4". The completed rifle was only about $200 more than this kit, and as we know, those new fangled breach loaders are much more complicated guns. Yet it was a finished rifle - beautifully finished, with stunning case colors.

This kit is supplied with the very "best of the best" furniture and action parts available on the market today. They didn't cut any corners when sourcing these parts. If one were to order them individually from Track of the Wolf, they would total several hundred dollars more. So, there is that - there is substantial savings to be had by purchasing this kit over assembling your own "kit" from these parts.

I'll keep you guys up to date as I progress. In addition to the butt and toe plates fitted, I managed to mate the tang to the breach plug. Lots of filing and spotting to get 100% contact between the two, which I find kind of disappointing what with the quality of parts chosen. How much more would it have been to have these parts faced off flat? They try to sell these steps as "opportunity to make it yours", and to "personalize" it. I'm not buying it. There is plenty of that kind of opportunity when building a kit such as this, it doesn't have to present itself at this detailed of a level.

Just a general comment that's not mean to be political...

I don't think you guys realize how lucky you are. A project like this is basically impossible in Australia.
(It's possible but very expensive and just getting the required permits is a gargantuan task all on its own)

So thanks for sharing this Jeff. I'll be keeping an eye on this one. :)

Interesting. Peter, I would have never guessed that even muzzle loaders had come under Australia's onerous gun laws. Here in the U.S., they are not even classified as "firearms". They can be purchased, sold, traded, shipped, with no paperwork nor oversight of any kind. Yes, indeed, we do have it quite good, and I appreciate that more every day.