I've been saying what a massive beast this thing turned out to be, but it strikes me that all I have been providing by way of comparison is other muzzle loaders, which also tend to be rather large. So, as a better point of reference for most folks, I thought I would provide a comparison with a more "normal" rifle, one with which most shooters would be familiar - a run-of-the-mill bolt action .30-'06.

Here it is, then, with my Model 70, just a standard model, built in 1953. I guess it's still large-ish by today's standards, but it's all I've got. Then standard 24" barrel, standard wood stock, maybe around nine pounds scoped. Looks positively petite next to the Hawken.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649203282.jpg

Here it is with one of my smaller hunting rifles, my #1 Light Sporter in 6.5 Swede. Now this is a small rifle, with its 22" barrel and falling block action. It goes about 6 1/2 pounds, a real joy to carry.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649203349.jpg

I'm diggin' the "Ed" house :)

Heh heh... it's more his "dining hall" than his house... he takes his meals in there, so, you know, none of the rest of us try to steal them from him. Best part is, he brings his bowl back into our house when he's done. Just so we don't forget to refill it...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649205594.jpg

Well, I hit my first hurdle today. I went to the range to fire some full power hunting loads at 100 yards off the bench. About four or five rounds into it the trouble started - the hammer would no longer reliably engage the sear at full cock. I knew full well what was happening, and why, but it did cut my range day short. There was no way to fix it there and keep shooting, so I packed up and went home.

It's kind of hard to describe, what was happening, but I'll try. These things have "double set" triggers, with two triggers. The rear trigger can be used to "set" the front trigger so that when the front trigger is pulled, it takes mere ounces of pressure to release the hammer and fire the rifle. This is accomplished by having a sear on the rear trigger that catches under a sear on the front trigger under a good deal of spring pressure. When the front trigger is pulled, it releases the rear trigger, under spring pressure, to fly up and hit the sear lever on the hammer, releasing it.

There is a critical relationship between the bars on top of the front and rear triggers and the sear bar on the hammer. When we pull the front trigger, its trigger bar pivots up to hit the sear bar on the hammer to release it. When we "set" the front trigger by pulling the rear trigger first, so its sear notch catches under the sear notch on the front trigger, we are counting on the trigger bar on the rear trigger flying up to hit the sear bar on the hammer to release it, under the afore mentioned spring pressure, when the front trigger is pulled to release it. In other words, both trigger bars need to be close enough to the hammer sear bar to be able to hit it and release it.

Well, in short, I left both trigger bars too high. They are supplied way too high, since we don't know where the triggers will land in relation to the hammer sear bar after everything is inletted into the stock. I left them high hoping for minimal travel in the triggers before hitting the hammer sear bar. It all worked just fine on Monday, shooting half charges, but today, under the recoil of full charges, things settled into their mortices just a bit more, and clearances got closed. It was a simple matter, once home, to file a bit more off of the trigger bars to make the sear engage reliably.

So, jut a minor hiccup in its early "shakedown runs". I'll head back to the range next week and resume working up the full power load. On a positive note, recovered patches today showed no sign of burn through or blow out, so they are holding the full power loads. It was grouping the expected 3" high at 100 yards, so that's another plus. Even better, I didn't have to wipe until I got six rounds through it, which ain't bad for such a monster load in a patched round ball rifle. I was shooting 140 grains of Swiss 1.5Fg, which is a fairly "substantial" load by any measure. Seemed to handle it just fine.

I'm glad you got a few rounds in before finding the issue. Sounds like and easy fix AND the rifle is officially range tested now.

Yup. Like I mentioned earlier, the first range day wherein I was shooting "half charges", went off without a hitch. 26 rounds without even wiping. I did manage eight rounds yesterday, five before it started skipping over the full cock notch. I was able to fire a few more by setting the triggers, thereby lowering the set trigger bar out of the way, before bringing it to full cock. Absolutely safe to operate it in this manner, just not ideal, nor the design intent. It was that ability to do so, by the way, that pointed to the problem.

These things will fire in two modes. When firing with the tiggers in the normal front trigger only, un-set mode, there is a lot of take-up in the front trigger. It's like a military two stage trigger. I was hoping to minimize that by leaving the trigger bars higher. All that served to do was to highlight why they have to be this way. All of my other set trigger rifles, from muzzle loaders to Sharps and Ballard breach loaders, do the same. This one, even after making them right, is still one of the better of the lot. I was just getting a bit greedy...

Does that mean if I bring my bowl back in you will feed me? With inflation and the price of food in the stores Kibble is looking pretty tasty to me right now.

Ed looks like he's a really good bud to have around..

Well Jeff now you are finding the fun of shooting muzzle loaders! I have had that happen during a match so I always bring at least TWO rifles as it takes a bunch of time to try and do a troubleshoot and repair. I would suggest pulling the trigger out and see if the hammer catches at half and full cock and if so the trigger needs adjustments. With the trigger group out see if it sets okay and the front trips the rear as it should. On most double set triggers there is an adjustment screw for the rear and then the tiny one to set the tripping pressure required to fire the rifle.

Put some red lipstick on the area where the trigger should hit and try cocking the hammer with the trigger installed and screws tightened. Remove the trigger to see if there is any lipstick has transferred and if so you'll need to space out the trigger slightly. I have had to do this a couple of times as the walnut had softened.
John

Just don't lay on the couch and lick your balls. That's all i ask.

The best. Five years my faithful hunting companion, rousting out the grouse, pheasant, and other upland birds. Pretty steady retriever on those as well as all manner of waterfowl. Not real picky about what kind of beer he drinks either.

Thanks John, for the always helpful advice. I've pretty much been through these steps, but have been kind of doubting myself, so it's really nice to get a "sanity check" from an experienced hand.

Both the lock and the triggers work great, independently of one another. The trouble started when they met in the stock. As I shot it more and more, and both the trigger plate and lock screws required snugging up, their relationship to one another changed just enough to cause this problem. Essentially, the triggers bars, when at rest, were too high to let the sear bar on the lock snick down just a tad as the hammer was pulled to full cock. I just had them set way too close. A few strokes with the mill file on the trigger bars solved the problem.

Here are a few photos to help illustrate what John and I are talking about.

First, the lock. At the bottom rear is what I am referring to as the "sear bar", the little bar sticking out perpendicular to the lock plate. It pivots on the lowest aft screw, and is held under spring pressure by the little leaf spring above it. The nose of this engages the notches on the hammer (which pivots on the pin visible below the two screws), holding it at half or full cock. First, the "just fired" position::

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649366258.jpg

Half cock:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649366258.jpg

Full cock:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649366258.jpg

Next, the triggers. Notice there are two, and notice there are two pins through the trigger plate. The front trigger pivots on the front pin, the rear trigger on the rear pin. From this it should be apparent which way the triggers pivot when pulled - the top of the front trigger pivots up, the top of the rear trigger pivots down:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649366466.jpg

Here I am pulling the front trigger, which would fire the rifle by tripping the sear bar on the lock:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649366466.jpg

Here I have pulled the rear trigger to "set" the mechanism. Notice the notch on the lower front of its trigger bar, now caught under a sear notch on the front trigger. The rear trigger is now preloaded under a good deal of spring pressure, exerted by the flat spring behind it. As John has noted, the tension is adjustable, via the screw at the rear:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649366466.jpg

Here it is after having pulled the front trigger, releasing the rear to spring up and trip the sear bar in the lock:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649366466.jpg

Finally, here are their relationships in the rifle:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1649366776.jpg

I hope this clears up what I've been trying to explain. That sear bar on the lock actually has to have a bit of room to go down just a bit as the bar makes its way over the notches in the hammer. It does return to center, but it needs that room to move. That's what I failed to provide, leaving the bars on the front and rear triggers too tall.

Well, I think I can close the book on this one. I took the finished rifle to The Hawken Shop today to get their thoughts on it. I wanted them to critique, and not hold back, to tell me where I could improve. After all, all I can see are its flaws, areas that I'm not happy with, that I think I could have done better. I wanted to hear it from them, honest and unabashed.

So, I'm afraid I might have to boast a bit - only half kidding, they offered me a job finishing rifles for customers. They gave me an "A+" for my efforts, telling me they very rarely see one finished at this level. I said "you're kidding, you're just being nice".

They both said "we have no reason to be". And, interestingly, both said they were surprised to see me so soon, and had assumed when I walked in that there had been problems. That would be the only reason for me to be back as soon as I was. And, with that, they admitted that most folks don't finish these, and they wind up bringing it back for them to finish, or to ask for referrals to professional builders. So they do know what they are selling... but they assume we do as well.

Anyway, all's well that ends well. I'm now very happy with, and proud of my rifle. A weight has been lifted, so to speak - The Hawken Shop said "ya done good". That made my day, it really did. Now I can set about to shooting it and really getting to "know" it. With all of the guns I own (and have owned), this one (at least right now) feels more like "my" rifle than the others ever have. I'm on cloud nine...

Kickass!

Jeff, bring it out to the ranch and lets put a couple rounds through it. SmileWavy

Finally got a chance to get this rifle on paper at 100 yards. The "half charge" of 70 grains of Swiss 1.5Fg, which worked so well at 50 yards, proved inadequate. The full 140 grain charge was blowing (burning through) patches, so I need to add something like a felt Wonder Wad under the patched round ball. Not having any with me today, I simply dropped the charge to 100 grains.

And boy howdy - does she ever like 100 grains! It is really, really windy here today, with a pretty steady 20mph and gusting higher. Not the best day for wind-adverse round balls, and it definitely showed on target by way of horizontal dispersion. I did manage to luck into about a ten minute period of steady wind, and managed to rattle off this five shot group. I was splitting the bull from 9:00 to 3:00 with the front sight, so the elevation is dead on on top of that front sight. And yes, this is how far off a round ball will impact in a 20mph wind at 100 yards.

I couldn't be happier with this rifle's performance so far. Next up will be the full charge hunting load.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1653693111.jpg

Nicely done Jeff. Thanks for the update.

For those of you who would like to go into business selling black powder rifles. Here is a local auction for a manufacturing company called Carlin.

https://www.postabid.com/auctions/6284/lot/7304-Complete-Custom-Muzzle-Loader

Jeff,

Congrats and glad to see you get it done the way you want it and dialed in!

Joe A

Another milestone with this rifle today - I finally managed to shoot it over a chronograph. It's difficult and time consuming to set one up at my club range, so I never really want to be "that guy" and make everyone wait, so I usually head out to my favorite gravel pit for this. Finally made it up there today.

To say I'm pleased would be an understatement. As a frame of reference, most round ball rifles of anywhere from about .40 to .58 caliber can achieve 1,800 - 2,000 fps with a full hunting charge. That charge will typically be between 120 and 140 grains of FFg black powder in a .54 such as this one.

I decided to start "light" and work up to that. Imagine my surprise when my first five rounds with only 100 grains of Swiss 1.5 Fg averaged 1,943 fps. My other two .54's will barely do 1,600 fps with that charge. All kinds of good things come of this in a round ball shooter - less fouling, no blown patches, no need for any kind of second patch under the ball, no felt wad, etc. Just much easier to load and manage with the lower charge.

I have no explanation for this significantly higher than normal velocity, but I'll take it. Maybe just a smoother, more consistent bore and rifling that seals the patch better. It does load much easier than my other rifles, and continues to do so for long strings of shots. It doesn't "foul out" after three or four shots, like many of these rifles are prone to doing. I can shoot it all day without cleaning, which is very unusual in a patched round ball shooter.

So, yeah - higher than normal velocities, easy loading, easy cleaning. And as accurate as any round ball shooter I own. I think I have a winner...

Jeff,
Is the .45-90 similar to what Billy Dixon was shooting at Adobe Walls?