Tesla phantom braking invesitgated

[Scott R]

As an owner this stuff is downright scary when it happens to you. I doesn't matter if you're on limited autopilot on the highway or the very limited "full self driving beta." I'm in the beta, and when this happens it's dangerous and scary. Tesla will not address this issue with owners so the the "NHTSA" has stepped in.

It kills me as a member of their beta program I cannot submit feedback when these things happen.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/tesla-investigated-over-phantom-braking-416-000-cars-involved/ar-AAU4x99?ocid=hplocalnews

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration announced this week it has opened an investigation into over 400,000 Teslas—all 2021 and 2022 model year Tesla Model 3 and Model Y electric vehicles—for problems with their automated emergency braking systems.

This isn’t the first time Tesla has had to deal with NHTSA about its potentially faulty AEB technology. In October, Tesla recalled almost 12,000 of its EVs because an over-the-air update caused communication problems between two chips that help run the AEB systems.

Other automakers, including Nissan and autonomous shuttle company EasyMile, have also had problems with their AEB systems.

New technologies can lead to new problems, for which we sometimes have to invent new terminologies. In the automotive world, the growing number of cars with automated emergency brake capability has led to something called "phantom braking," which is when the AEB system thinks it needs to brake in order to prevent a collision, but there's actually nothing there to hit.

This week, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) said it has received 354 complaints from Tesla drivers concerning these unexpected automatic braking incidents over the past nine months. NHTSA said that Tesla drivers have reported "that the rapid deceleration can occur without warning, at random, and often repeatedly in a single drive cycle."

If this is the future, well I'm not sure I like it.

[McLovin]

It’s happened to me a few times.
It’s something that shouldn’t happen, but I didn’t find it particularly scary (at least what’s happened to me).
What’s happened in my cases is I’m cruising at around 75, and the car suddenly starts to slow down. Not like slamming on the brakes, but definitely getting off the “gas” and slowing down.
I just pressed on the accelerator and re-engaged auto pilot.
That being said, I’m still surprised Tesla’s “self driving” is legal. IMO it is not really understood by most people, and can be dangerous in their hands.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by McLovin

It’s happened to me a few times.
It’s something that shouldn’t happen, but I didn’t find it particularly scary (at least what’s happened to me).
What’s happened in my cases is I’m cruising at around 75, and the car suddenly starts to slow down. Not like slamming on the brakes, but definitely getting off the “gas” and slowing down.
I just pressed on the accelerator and re-engaged auto pilot.
That being said, I’m still surprised Tesla’s “self driving” is legal. IMO it is not really understood by most people, and can be dangerous in their hands.

For me its a left turn, the same left turn into the shopping center and it locks up the brakes. It's downright scary. There was a new software update pushed to me tonight 2021.44.30.21 so we shall see. But it seems like a camera/technology limitation.

[RNajarian]

Originally Posted by McLovin

It’s happened to me a few times.
It’s something that shouldn’t happen, but I didn’t find it particularly scary (at least what’s happened to me).
What’s happened in my cases is I’m cruising at around 75, and the car suddenly starts to slow down. Not like slamming on the brakes, but definitely getting off the “gas” and slowing down.
I just pressed on the accelerator and re-engaged auto pilot. That being said, I’m still surprised Tesla’s “self driving” is legal. IMO it is not really understood by most people, and can be dangerous in their hands.

I agree completely. It absolutely infuriates me seeing what some Tesla “drivers” are doing with the Self Driving feature.

Please do not confuse this post as a condemnation of Tesla, but rather a condemnation of the IDIOTS who do not take the responsibility of driving seriously. Because of their irresponsibility, I believe the NTSB will shut down, or at least severely scale back the abilities of the technology.

While on my commute this is what I have seen. . .

1) Nearly fully reclined “driver” reading an iPad (not sure how they got past the engineering controls on this one)

2) Eating what I presumed to be a bowl of cold cereal.

3) Shaving (with an electric shaver)

4) Applying their make up.

The drivers who abuse the feature in this way are going to ruin it for Tesla’s quest for the fully automatic driving feature. Legislators will see the rare (documented) instances of irresponsible behavior and at least, for the time being, ban the auto driving feature.

One accident involving the death of a child as a result of one of these behaviors will motivate legislators to shut down the feature. Here are some of the more egregious instances.

1) “Drivers” asleep at the wheel
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tesla-driver-slept-car-was-going-over-80-mph-autopilot-n1267805

2) Having sex at the wheel
https://www.indiatimes.com/technology/news/couple-filmed-sex-in-a-tesla-on-autopilot-and-elon-musk-tweets-sex-puns-instead-of-warning-367019.html

3) Having their dog supervise the self driving feature
https://electrek.co/2021/12/14/idiots-use-tesla-autopilot-put-dog-in-danger-attempt-viral/

4) “Drivers” playing video games while vehicle is in motion.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/tesla-autopilot-video-games-console-b1980928.html

5) Drunk/passed out “drivers” using their Tesla as an Uber to drive them home.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/tesla-self-driving-drunk-driver-b1924303.html

The list goes on. . .

If Tesla could get all of their drivers to pay attention while the vehicle is in the self driving mode, many/most of the bugs, like the phantom braking, could be safely addressed without the negative press. Unfortunately, the idiots who put their dog in the drivers seat while they ride in the back seat will delay the full implementation of this feature for some time.

Again, this thread is NOT a condemnation of Tesla or it’s revolutionary technology, but rather a condemnation of the idiots who shouldn’t be driving a shopping cart.

[john70t]

It's a few years old in technology but a good primer to watch:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lanceeliot/2019/10/21/novas-look-whos-driving-documentary-is-a-must-see-on-the-promises-and-perils-of-self-driving-cars/

It comes down to final liability for any accident.
1). Tesla calls it "autopilot" which is highly deceptive to the consumer.
For some reason that was not illegal but should have been.
Musk called it an aviation term with complete consumer ignorance of the definition...which of course is entirely relevant to pedestrian streets.
(The Columbo in me would want just a few more questions as to airplanes self-parking in the sky.)
He is half right in subtly blaming the consumer though.

2). Tesla is a fairly good Level 2 driver-assist platform.
https://www.synopsys.com/automotive/autonomous-driving-levels.html
It is designed to synch with moving traffic/foot patterns...
Not in avoiding stopped vehicles, obstacles, and tank sized potholes...
Several fatal crashes involved a semi pulling across the road ahead.
More than a few cop cars and ambulances have been pegged at high speeds.

3). The vehicle function should not be able to operate without a driver with one hand on the wheel.
It should let the driver know it's turning off.

4). The vehicle function should not be able to operate under certain conditions such as sleet rain, in the middle of random heavy pedestrian traffic etc etc where sensors are compromised and software in incomplete. Every autonomous vehicle is only as good as it's total awareness, programming, and immediate conditions.

What is not disclosed from the very beginning are the capabilities and limitations. There should be a NHTS training course..along with some kind of standardized educational brochure..and a warning for accepting liability...for every purchaser of every semi-autonomous vehicle. That should have been pounded into the brains of every consumer. Where were the feds to protect us all?

Another question you should ask yourself is "Why are the feds even allowing companies to run experimental vehicles on public streets?"
Tesla was running an auto retrieve program where the car would drive itself to the front of the store from the parking lot. I believe a few people were hit. Seriously they let this happen? This belongs in the GMAFB category. Many functions should have remained in the data-sourcing stages until 100% accuracy was confirmed.

[hcoles]

Elon Musk said this.. Generalized self-driving is a hard problem, as it requires solving a large part of real-world AI. Didn’t expect it to be so hard, but the difficulty is obvious in retrospect.

Nothing has more degrees of freedom than reality.

I'm not sure why we really need self driving. A reliable electric car with enough range should be just fine. I think it is okay to keep working on developing self driving but put some of that engineering effort into making the basic car better and cheaper.

[Joe Bob]

An electric shock to the gonads if hands are off the wheel more than five minutes.

[RANDY P]

Did anyone not figure that automated driving will lead to idiots testing the feature in dangerous ways?

IDGAF about that 'tech'- unsafe, and definitely not for me.

rjp

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

An electric shock to the gonads if hands are off the wheel more than five minutes.

+1. Being behind the wheel of a 2 ton auto isn't the place to watch a movie or jerk off.

rjp

[MMARSH]

My Model S will start braking in the exact same spot when driving S/B on the 5 freeway when driving thu burbank. The first time it happened it startled me because I thought there was some obstacles in front of me I couldn't see. Now I'm used to it and it really doesn't bother me......

[sc_rufctr]

Phantom braking!!! What if this was a Toyota or GM? Do you remember the unexpected acceleration issues with Toyota?

- Somehow Mr Musk seems to be able to get away with anything.

[rusnak]

I think self-driving cars should display a sign like a "Student Driver" does. That way the rest of us can be aware that they may do some weird siht. I don't care if someone will eventually post how their car "drives perfectly and brakes normally", blah dee blah blah. Obviously there are problems or we would not be talking about it.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by Scott R

For me its a left turn, the same left turn into the shopping center and it locks up the brakes. It's downright scary.

I’ve found the self driving works pretty well on the highway. Like, in the space from on-ramp to off-ramp.
The self driving in the city is downright terrifying! That is so beta testing that is shocking. It’s not even close to being functional.

[manbridge 74]

If it were a Prius it’d be hung in the public square of Mediatown.

Oh, and hay-ill no to any phantom braking. Even slight braking at 75mph for no reason will create road raging idiots behind you, if not an accident.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by john70t

< lots of good text snipped for brevity >
Another question you should ask yourself is "Why are the feds even allowing companies to run experimental vehicles on public streets?"
Tesla was running an auto retrieve program where the car would drive itself to the front of the store from the parking lot. I believe a few people were hit. Seriously they let this happen? This belongs in the GMAFB category. Many functions should have remained in the data-sourcing stages until 100% accuracy was confirmed.

I'm sure that lots of politicians have thought "I've seen self driving cars in the sci-fi movies and Knight Rider, this is a great idea that will solve our accident problems."

If you don't put enough thought into it, it seems like a great idea. But obviously, there's A LOT to implementing it in a way that would make it ready for prime time.

I agree, it's insane that it's been beta tested on real streets. I guess the theory is that a lot of testing went on before that and then it was moved to real streets after the testing phase proved successful.

We are obviously a LONG way from telling "KITT" to come pick us up or getting into the car and telling it to take us drunk we're home or whatever.

Imagine sending one down one of the streets in New Orleans that's full of pedestrians, mall parking lots before Christmas, Airport pickup areas, etc....

[masraum]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

My Model S will start braking in the exact same spot when driving S/B on the 5 freeway when driving thu burbank. The first time it happened it startled me because I thought there was some obstacles in front of me I couldn't see. Now I'm used to it and it really doesn't bother me......

So it brakes at the same place any time that you're on that particular road? Have you figured out what the cause is? I'd be wondering about signs, barricades, curves in the road, weird lighting, etc....

[rockfan4]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Phantom braking!!! What if this was a Toyota or GM? Do you remember the unexpected acceleration issues with Toyota?

- Somehow Mr Musk seems to be able to get away with anything.

The wife owns a 2016 Chevy Impala with collision avoidance. Not automatic braking, but it will disengage the cruise. Had it happen to me twice this weekend, once while traveling a divided four lane, bright sunny conditions, it saw something, disengaged the cruise, beeped at me and flashed red leds in my face. Nothing in the road. Might have been a shadow. Second time was on a city street, approaching a roundabout but still about half a block away, same thing. There was still some ice and snow on the street, nothing fresh, that hard, dirty ice you get when 500 cars pack it down before the plow has a chance to move it. GM does it too, at least this car doesn't slam on the brakes.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by RNajarian

I agree completely. It absolutely infuriates me seeing what some Tesla “drivers” are doing with the Self Driving feature.

Any of the driver aids introduced so far, have made the drivers worse for it..

ABS reduced braking technique/ability understanding
Raised confidence of certain drivers to drive fast in rain

TC reduced ability to moderate the throttle with a fine application of the right food
Raised confidence of certain drivers to have lots of power available to em

DRL reduced need to bother with turning lights on
Many idiots now drive around in twilight, dusk, fog or snow with no rear lights on (finally fixed with 2015 models as legislation was changed)

Cruise Control makes people get in a lane, put on CC and then doze off
till they plow into the rear of a Tjam

Now Adaptive TC was developed + Auto Ebraking
Well now they can doze off completely and wake up in the rear of a Tjam..
But that only works if nobody changes lane at the last second, in front of em.

lane assist
speed assist

auto pilot

None of it has ever improved the average driver's abilities.
None of them ever will.
Most simply cause a false sense of confidence , Either thinking they are safe when they are not, or thinking they are now able to drive faster then before.
Any kind of auto pilot where responsibility remains with the driver, is doomed to fail.

And any kind of self driving is a liability no OEM will dare to assume responsibility for, especially not on roads shared with NON self driving vehicles.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by rockfan4

Second time was on a city street, approaching a roundabout but still about half a block away, same thing.

Weird, I wonder if the roundabout looked like something blocking the road, although, I wouldn't expect it to do anything half a block away.

We've got a Subaru with "eyesight" which will stop you from hitting things front or rear, watch your lane, adaptive cruise, etc.... I've never had it apply brakes when I didn't understand why. I've had it apply brakes when a car was turning across my path or turning right in front of me when I would not have braked and we didn't need to brake. But it's not done anything dangerous or surprising. I guess I should count my lucky stars.

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by svandamme

Any of the driver aids introduced so far, have made the drivers worse for it..

As an old fool who knows nothing about how the world works, one of my biggest pet peeves is the lack of proper driver training, and the desperate need for of tiered drivers licences. Our streets and highways are jammed with entitled imbeciles.