new spoon indecision
 

Got itch for new spoon. Went to spoon show today and sold a "spare" EBR, and now I'm waffling on what to spend my bucks on.

Henry single shot 45-70 or Ruger American Ranch in 450 Bushmaster are high contenders...

But I wouldn't mind a .300 blackout or 6.5 grendel bolt gun either, but they seem to be OOS every where...

Would love a TC Contender in 30-30 but Contender prices have gone stupid, so it seems I've missed that boat. The CVA Scout pistol in .300bo is in my price range, but as soon as I decide possibly they too seem to be OOS.

Suggestions?

Questions to ask:
What are you more likely to shoot?
What has available ammo?
Would the price of ammo cause you to not shoot it?

I was looking at a revolver until I found that there was no ammo in that caliber to be found

There is .38 Special
https://palmettostatearmory.com/38-special-ammo.html

SG Ammo usually has some stock of .38 Special and .357 magnum .

I have an older Ruger Mini 14 I really like...but for a bolt action rifle I stay in the Savage .22 WMR for varmints. It stays pretty much in my Polaris Ranger year round.

The 450 Bushmaster looks like a beast.

All your choices look solid but I only have a few Ruger rifles and pistols so for me logistics becomes a deal breaker.

Enjoy regardless.

Set up to reload, so feeding a single shot or bolt gun is relatively easy and cheap.

At the moment I'm leaning a little more towards the 450 over the 45-70 just because there is a much bigger choice of inexpensive bullets at .451/.452 diameter (all those 45acp shooters...) than there are at .458 ...

Did find a CVA Scout in 350 Legend.... that is now on my pondering list...

I can only offer that I had a Henry Big Boy in .44, and never liked it. It was a nice looking gun to be sure, and did cycle correctly when done with the proper authority. But the furniture was tiny, and it kicked like a mule, have to imagine .45-70 would not be any more fun. And it was simply not accurate. Yeah, a straight walled .44 is not going to be the same as a proper rifle cartridge, but I could never get the thing dialed in. Maybe mind was a lemon, but I let it go. I did take a deer with it, but that is not saying much at 30 yards.

My friend has a Ruger .450 that is a good shooter with factory ammo. The 45/70 seemed to kick like a mule compared to the .450. I shoot a Mossberg .450

Um, yeah - Henry. I wouldn't own one if you gave it to me. "Made in America or not made at all" notwithstanding, they are no Marlin nor Winchester. Cheap junk built to a price. Hardly anything with which to judge the veracity of the .44 mag in a rifle, nor any other straight walled cartridge.

You guys know I'm a fan of both lever guns and single shots. Most of mine shoot straight walled cartridges, mostly rifle cartridges, but a few shoot revolver cartridges. While none are bench rest guns by any stretch, all will shoot better than I can hold from any practical field position. They are eminently useful rifles in the real world, away from the gun club ranges and their fixed bench rests. Relatively lightweight, well balanced, easy to carry for extended periods of time, unlike some scoped AR with a 30 round mag hanging out of the bottom, right where you want to cradle it when you're out walking in the woods.

And yes, the real rifle calibers "kick like a mule", at least from the perspective of someone weaned on semi-automatic "poodle shooters" like the AR15. Get over it. It's a simple fact of life. If you want a real rifle, effective in the field, it is, by its very nature, going to kick. Aversion to that can be overcome with practice, which breeds familiarity. It's a mindset. Anyone can do it. If all you want to do is plink in the gravel pit, just avoid all of that and a lot of needless expense and buy the rimfire that pleases you the most. Have fun, plink away - no one needs more power than that to roll soup cans.

Something I've noticed about the .44 whether it's Henry, Marlin, Rossi... is they seem finicky about the ammo they like. I know my friend wasn't happy with his Marlin until he started making custom loads for it. He was upset at the lack of accuracy using factory loads. Now the rifle is dialed in. Another friend of mine shoots a Henry Big Boy and experienced the same problem my friend with the Marlin did. My nephew had a Rossi, same thing. Each wouldn't hold a good group.

My .450 groups well at 100 yards with Hornady Black ammo. My friend's Ruger groups well using Hornady Custom. Neither of us have tried swapping ammo yet.

The 45/70, I thought, kicked harder by far than the 44, a little more than the .450 and at least as much as my 12 gauge shooting 3" Remington Copper Solid rounds.

If we're gonna talk about finnicky 44s I'll mention my '63 vintage Ruger 44 carbine.... though I'm 90% sure that a good cleaning will take care of a lot of the cycling issues.

Re: the Henry - I don't do lever guns. They just never did anything for me. The one I'm considering is their single shot. I've handled one in 12ga and it seem to be well built, and I've seen reports of the rifle incarnations shooting near MOA. As a bonus every pic I've seen of one has had better than "plain" wood....



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1645363011.jpg

^^^
They do make pretty stuff! To me, the Big Boy is too pretty to carry around in the woods for fear I'd scratch it and start crying.

The one thing I will say that stands out about my Mossberg and my friend's Ruger is that the Ruger has a smoother bolt. But mine has bling! the bolt is fluted on mine.

Every time I shoot my Marlin 45-70 I’m reminded why I don’t shoot it very often, or rather my shoulder is reminded.

Even my Springfield 30-06 has a kick. At 70 years old it's the most I can handle.
"Poodle shooter"...ha...luv it!!

Many .44 caliber lever guns needlessly stick to tradition and utilize the rifling twist rate of the original Model 1873 Winchester in .44-40 caliber. The .44-40 uses a very light for caliber bullet, a stubby little 200 grain semi round nose. Since it is so short, Winchester was able to get away with a very slow twist, like 1:38". Unfortunately, Winchester and Marlin (and I suspect Henry, but I'm not sure) have carried on with this twist rate for their modern .44 mag lever guns. As a result, many will not even stabilize factory 240 grain bullets. Forget the 300 grain and heavier bullets, these rifles are pretty hopeless with them.

Winchester finally corrected this problem with their latest issue Miroku made Model 92 in .44 mag. It has a far more useful 1:22" twist, so it will stabilize those long 300 grain bullets.

The .38 Special / .357 mag versions of the Marlin 1894 and Winchester Model 92 have always had a proper fast twist, since there never was a .38 caliber lever gun back in the 19th century through which future production would be influenced. Oh, there was the .38-40 WCF, but don't let that fool you - they use .410" diameter bullets.

Modern .45 Colt examples suffer this same slow twist problem, which I find odd. You see, there was never a .45 Colt lever gun back in the day either. The original rim was simply too small to allow it to function in a lever gun. It was not until Colt increased its rim size so that the star extractor in their double action New Service revolver would work with them that the .45 Colt became viable as a lever gun round. Even then, it took until the 1980's or so for Marlin to start chambering it. They had no reason to go with the slow twist by then, but they did. Mine is thereby limited to bullets no heavier than 250 grains or so.

And yes, .45-70 lever guns can kick. Factory loads meant for the old Trapdoor Springfield, 400 grain bullets at 1,300 fps or so, are relative pussycats to shoot. The Marlin 1895, new production Winchester 1886's, Ruger #1's, and that Henry single shot (which is no more than the old H&R Handi Rifle), can take substantially heavier loads. These are the only loads wherein I found myself to be the "limit", and not the pressures the rifle would accept. Just to see, just to understand where the "maximum" load really lays, I worked up to it in my Marlin 1895 and Winchester 1886.

I stopped after having eclipsed 2,000 fps with a 410-ish grain hard cast, gas checked bullet from the RCBS .45-400 GC mold. Holy Mother of God - the slim stocks, relatively "light" weight, and comb profiles of those rifles made them extremely punishing with those loads. And I'm a guy who shoots 500 grain bullets from my long throated .458 Winchester Magnum chambered Ruger #1 at almost 2,200 fps. It's different stock profile, along with two pounds more weight make it far more "comfortable" than those .45-70's. So I backed way off to just about 1,750 fps and am much, much happier. Still pretty snappy, but not nearly as punishing anymore.

So, yeah, the .45-70 has multiple personalities, depending on what you are after. With its heavier loads, I would say its effectiveness on game rivals that of my beloved .375 H&H Magnums. It doesn't have the range, but out to 120, 150 yards or so, it's a wash. Load it down to standard factory velocities, and it really is a pussycat, and a pretty fun plinker with those big old bullets. And still very, very effective on medium game. It's a great cartridge, that can do a lot of things.

I hope I am not out of line when I inform our dear readers about Mr. Higgins' physiology. When Jeff shies away from a rifle because of its recoil, take notice. He is a tallish, well-built, outdoorsy athletic man. Vote "Most Likely to Survive Being Kicked By A Mule." My guess is that if I punched him in the face, he'd laugh.

My vote is for a Rossi in .357 Mag Lever Action if you want it NOW or wait for Marlin to get the line operating.

.357/.38SPL ammo is relatively easy to find
Reloading - easy to find bullets, primers and powder plus you can make bullets from lead
No one is taking a lever when all your other arms were lost in that terrible flood
Don't bother with anything over 16" as that is where normal rounds max out.

This is my planned next rifle. I am waiting for Marlin to get the factory going again.

Henry's website advertises 1:20 twist rate for both .44 Mag and .45-70 rifles.

Not meaning to hijack (but I guess I am), but does anybody know when Ruger will be producing the Marlin 1894 again in .357?

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/s/news-2021-12-20/

Supposedly 2022

So after consulting quite a bit of reloading data, thinking about what I'd really enjoy shooting most often, etc a late entry seems to be pulling ahead quite a bit.

Savage bolt gun in .300blackout w/ 16" threaded barrel. 300bo will use about 1/3 the powder of either of the big boomer rounds I was looking at, and bullets are 1/4 to 1/2 the price as well. Oh, and small primers, which I have a large stock of

Will call a few local shops during lunch to see if they can get one in close to what bass pro will sell me one for (I'd rather support my local enablers vs. the big box store)

The hardest and most painful kicking gun I ever bought was a Savage Ultralight 30.06. I bought it for a mule deer hunt in Idaho that required a ton of hiking so I wanted lightweight gear. That gun sucked so bad to sight in that I put it in the safe and it has stayed there till this day. I think I’ll gift it to my son. Lol.

I have a tradition of giving my two sons firearms on significant birthdays. Both received Chipmunk .22 rimfire single shot bolt guns at six years old. At 12 years old, the oldest received a Model 70 Featherweight in 6.5 Swede. The younger received a Ruger #1 Light Sporter in .30-'06. The rifle weighs about six pounds, so I would imagine it's pretty close to that Savage.

I started him with the 100 grain Speer "plinkers" at about 2,000 fps. We worked up to shooting .30-30 level loads, a 150 grain Sierra at about 2,200 fps. He shot his first deer at 12 years old with that load.

As he grew older, we went to full power .30-'06 level loads. It really likes 200 grain Nosler Partitions over a stiff load of Reloder 22, for just under 2,700 fps. Fairly stout load for the old '06, but that #1 is about the strongest commercial action ever made. We get great case life, with over a dozen reloads at that power level, indicating pressures are very acceptable. He's been shooting those loads since he was about 15-16 years old.

While recoil might be a bit "stiff", neither one of us finds those loads in that little rifle objectionable in the least. Probably a matter of perspective and familiarity. If we only shoot these kinds of rifles and loads enough to sight them in once a year prior to hunting then, well, yes, I can see where it might be a little unnerving to do so. Shoot them year round, practice all the time, and pretty soon it takes a really stout .45-70, or .375 H&H, or .458 Win Mag to get our attention. Practice, practice, practice, and eventually it gets far less intimidating.

Exactly, this gun was only purchased for one purpose, this particular hunt and any hunts like it in the future. That Savage is a smidge over 6lbs if I remember right and the recoil, while not the hit by a truck feeling like my lever action 45-70, was a knife edge kick to the shoulder. Enough that I found myself thinking about the next shot. I don’t like that in a gun. I don’t want to think about it. My 7mag Ruger is that gun. It’s a joy to shoot.

Stupid, stupid question. What's a 450 Bushmaster? Is that a size of bullet or an actual gun?


Lee

Stay with recognized brands and mainstream calibers...where there is plenty of ammo available at a reasonable price.

Names like Colt, sw, Winchester, Remington, browning, walther, sig, ruger all have better resale potential on the back end. and that is real important. Pay a little more now get more on the back end.

The name of the cartridge. Straight wall, rimless, fits in an AR magazine and launches a 225-300 grain bullet at 2200fps (7000 grains per pound or 15.4 per gram)

Colt has never made a bolt action rifle, other than the Colt-Sauer one, and then even that was made by Howa/Husquavarna. Same with S&W.

Winchester and Reminton both lost quality a few decades ago, and Remington doesn't even exist - various parts of it were purchased last year in bankruptcy sales.

Browning - over priced for what it is. Would rather pay half the price for a Howa or Weatherby Vanguard, made in the same factory.

Walther and Sig make great pistols, not aware of any (currently importable) rifles, or especially bolt guns.

Ruger is Ruger, and I prefer not to buy Ruger stuff due to Bill Ruger's politics and policies. Even though he is long dead and gone. My three Ruger firearms were all made before 1990.

Thank you, id10t! ...


Lee