A parent's lessons in college and a bit on youth sports

[berettafan]

Son is HS sr this year and college went from being a vague idea requiring money to a steel toed boot to the nuts in a hurry! We've been talking with other parents in our circle to get some perspective and of course researching the heck out of schools, costs, etc online.

So for parents who've yet to send their first to college here are a few observations-

-Out of state tuition/room & board at public colleges are easy $40-50k/yr. Private colleges can be $75k/yr easy. Private schools have more money to throw at you. Don't write one off just because it's more $$ on the website.

-There are apparently a LOT of kids out there making a job out of maxing their SAT scores. 1500 is no promise of ivy. And we've learned 1300+ is no promise of mid to upper tier publics.

-Money spent on college app essay training is probably well worth it. We didn't do this for our son but will definitely be doing so for his younger sister. Seems ridiculous but the competition is doing it guaranteed.

-Everybody wants to go to school in Fla and the schools there know it. Don't look at FSU's average accepted SAT and assume you're golden.

-Acceptance rates are dropping like a rock. Many schools we're looking at are reporting 20% increases in apps rec'd. Niche app might say xyz U has 65% acceptance rate but we've got an email where the math is a lot closer to 15%.

-Consider early admission. Much nicer to have choices in January/February than to wait till April. Schools want deposits by May 1.

-Yield protection is a thing. Perusing the admissions forums for various schools shows kids with 1550 SAT's getting denied from 'lesser' schools. Don't assume State U is a safety choice. They may deny your 1500 SAT/Cheer captain student because they assume she won't accept if offered.

-State schools can and do offer differently to in state and out of state students. Have seen reports of 2x's the offer % to OOS vs IS.

-Sports- Our kid is a 3 sport athlete with all manner of awards but he's not a D1 athlete in any of them and wants the best possible engineering degree so we're out of play on this aspect. But we have several friends whose kids ARE potential D1s and the stories we get are very interesting.

Football and basketball are the revenue generators for colleges. That is where resources go. Consider this before dropping $5k plus on a season of travel baseball , field hockey, etc. Nobody gives a **** what your kid did pre HS. They want to know measurables. Sprint times, height, weight and how recently did he hit puberty. 5'11" with a beard freshman hitting bombs on the diamond projects for ****. That kid is invisible to recruiters. 6'4" bean pole freshman with good speed on passing routes...that kid projects. Get your fast, projectable football kid to set up a twitter, link HUDL film and if he's projectable he might start getting calls. BUT be aware you might be invited to a camp/tour just to put pressure on another kid who was already offered but hasn't accepted. Heard first hand of this happening. It is a wild world out there for the big two sports. Every other sport...play for the love but don't think you are investing. We ALL say it's about the fun and to an extent it is but we easily spent a year's tuition on travel baseball over the years. In retrospect...no thanks. The wise play would've been to stay local and have fun. Legion ball (almost free), occasional lessons and a good workout routine would accomplish the same. No doubt there are parallels in most other sports.

[Norm K]

Originally Posted by berettafan

-Sports- Our kid is a 3 sport athlete with all manner of awards but he's not a D1 athlete in any of them and wants the best possible engineering degree so we're out of play on this aspect.

https://www.mines.edu/

_

[berettafan]

Thanks Norm. Considered but didn't apply. Maybe need to read up on it. He did get into Rose Hulman but man oh man is that a pricey education. Waiting to hear back on $$. he's also as big a sports fan as he is player and while I think he'd jump on a school that offered a very good eng. degree AND let him play ball i think at this point it would be a walk on situation. I think he'd have one hell of a good time screaming his lungs out from the stands with 30k other kids.

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Getting an internship after graduation is your next step in leveraging that degree for the future.

Find a technical fellowship program in your Son's engineering field too.

[MBAtarga]

I picked up on Engineering Degree. What discipline?

Might I suggest Ga Tech?

https://www.gatech.edu/about/rankings

[berettafan]

At this point we're just gonna see how the first year goes. He has been accepted into the engineering programs at several schools so should get some exposure right off the bat. College can have a way of realigning ones thinking so not gonna put the cart before the horse. My goal is for him to find the career that doesn't feel like work because he enjoys it.

MBA he applied to GT but didn't get in. Process would've been over if he had. As i said mid 1300s SAT, three sports, community service (legit with Presidential Award), NHS, Math honor society, etc etc wasn't enough. GT is top 5 or so on many lists for engineering.

In any event i really just wanted to share a bit for those who have this coming. Our son fits a lot of what the experts say schools are looking for but there are just so many kids applying and the bar is really being raised on the academic stats, application presentation, etc. these days.

[masraum]

Wow, things have changed. It's crazy what's happened to higher education.

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

Getting an internship after graduation is your next step in leveraging that degree for the future.

Find a technical fellowship program in your Son's engineering field too.

There's another thing similar to intern, but I believe it's called "co-op" where when a student gets closer to the end of their degree, they can go work (like an intern) at places in between school semesters. That's a great setup. They come out of school with a little experience, and if they are well liked by the places that they worked, they may have job offers for when they get there degree before they get their degree.

[aschen]

I have no school spirt in the conventional sense but definitely got a good engineering education from Purdue.

11 year tuition hike freeze as well.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/mitch-daniels-purdue/606772/

I think shopping for school needs to be routed in pragmatism for anyone on any sort of budget. Maybe an obvious statement but still lots of people go for expensive low utility degrees from low value proposition schools.

[Seahawk]

Fantastic post, especially the sports angle.

[berettafan]

A clients son just graduated from Capital Tech (i had never heard of it) using the co op program. Spent a semester working for the gov't. Just graduated, gets the gov't job and an 80k salary.

Agree on the utility of the degree. If the boy said he wanted to be a CPA or teacher like his parents he'd be shopping price almost exclusively with secondary considerations on ball and location. What i've read on engineering is you either can do it or you can't when you graduate. No room for BS or 'yeah but i went to the bosses alma mater'. With that in mind we've tried to identify strong programs with hands on teaching and up to date tech.

The risk of course is a change of heart 2 years in to a $50k/yr education but my thinking right now is if you're gonna do it you better do it right. Half assed never helped anyone.


Seahawk thanks. The sports portion has been a hard earned lesson i can tell you that. Whole industries exist to separate hopeful parents from their dollars. Lesson rates of $100/hr are not at all uncommon even in our rural area. We've been to every coastal state from NY to Florida particularly in the 'showcase' years. My son's buddy who started the whole process with him at 9 walked away two years ago and threw himself into work and academics. He's fully funded his Roth two years in a row and has $20k in the bank on top of it. A sr in high school...can you believe it? Not saying he made the better choice but i think most of us never even stop to show the math to our kids.

[masraum]

You just need to talk to Rick Singer!

Prosecutors said it was led by William "Rick" Singer, a so-called college-prep professional who ran a sham charity that was found to be at the center of the scandal.

Just ask these ladies for their testimony, I mean, testimonial.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by berettafan

A clients son just graduated from Capital Tech (i had never heard of it) using the co op program. Spent a semester working for the gov't. Just graduated, gets the gov't job and an 80k salary.

Agree on the utility of the degree. If the boy said he wanted to be a CPA or teacher like his parents he'd be shopping price almost exclusively with secondary considerations on ball and location. What i've read on engineering is you either can do it or you can't when you graduate. No room for BS or 'yeah but i went to the bosses alma mater'. With that in mind we've tried to identify strong programs with hands on teaching and up to date tech.

The risk of course is a change of heart 2 years in to a $50k/yr education but my thinking right now is if you're gonna do it you better do it right. Half assed never helped anyone.

Yep, and that was my problem. I had no real clue what I wanted to do, so I just picked something. I ended up not really being interested in it and didn't know how to figure out what I was interested in. I eventually dropped out, and many years later, I stumbled upon career that I really enjoy where I can make a good living.

[fintstone]

As an engineer that has hired a lot of engineers...IMHO, there does not seem to be a lot of difference between those that went to the top schools and very good ones. Any engineering degree from any state school will allow a hard-working young man or woman to have a great career and life.

I had a similar situation where my seeming perfect daughter (Presidential scholar, 4-year college varsity cheerleader, massive volunteer work) with great grades and an undergrad in Biology and Chemistry yet could not get into any of the med schools she applied to (even though she had a full ride scholarship to her choice of schools). She went back to grad school for a year and took a bunch more courses in biology and chemistry. She also spent her undergraduate college graduation money on a full-time, in-residence summer program to increase her MCAT scores (and they did go up quite a bit). She applied and once again, no luck. She was waitlisted at her last choice...one she only applied on a whim because I was away from home working near there on a military project. At the last moment, she got accepted to that one. When she graduated, they called her doctor just the same as ivy leaguers...and she has been at the top of her class/year group from day one and crushed her exams. A decade later, she is a fine doctor...well respected and doing incredibly well. We are so very proud of her.

I am glad she took her scholarships and had no debt after graduating (and didn't let the struggle discourage her). The school was just the beginning.

[MRM]

Consider a DIII school that has a good engineering program. DIII schools recruit athletes fiercely and give preferential admissions and financial aid, too. They just can't give sports scholarships. If he's tempted to try to walk on a DI school, he may do better with a DIII school where he's a bigger fish in a smaller pond.

Just tossing this out there, but Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute plays DIII and is serious about sports and academics. It might be a good fit for him.

Choosing an engineering school based on its prestige depends on the kid's ambitions. Fint's point that most engineers get about the same education and come out about the same way is largely correct, but going to a more prestigious school will certainly open doors that wouldn't be open if he goes to a less well known school. For most people this isn't an issue, but if he wants to get into senior management or run a business someday, his path will be easier if he goes to a better known school.

The other thing about engineering schools is that each school has a different feel and personality. Some of them are downright oppressive and others are a bit more flexible. Some have 50,000 students, others have 1,500. It's probably more important that he goes to a school where campus life and the school's personality fits him best. He'll do better if he's happy and he'll have a much better college experience. I'd recommend searching first on fit, then look at prestige then do a price/benefit analysis.

[Scott Douglas]

My son's description of his 'interview by committee' is a good example of what fintstone says.
When all was said and done, they asked who he knew as his resume had been given to them with a 'hire this guy' attached to it (I think). They said he answered questions quicker and more thoroughly than guys from a lot more 'prestigious' schools.
So far he's done great for himself and his family. Playing D1 baseball was a bonus for him. He worked at both baseball and interning during the summers and was assured he'd have jobs waiting for him when done with school.
We lucked out and he got a full ride academic scholarship which the athletic dept couldn't have matched, but they loved having a scholar on the team to help tutor the guys that weren't making the grades.

[id10t]

Lots of other ways to a cheap/free education....

Do the AA/gened stuff at a community/junior college and not at a big state university. Even out of state costs are a drop in the bucket compared to university rates.

Most schools have free or almost free tuition for employees/spouses/dependents. My AS, AA, and BAS cost me a total of about $3k out of pocket including books, my daughter's AA is costing me about $1k out of pocket. I know a guy who put himself thru a masters in engineering by mowing lawns at the college and then getting a lawn job at UF. Ended up with his ME and 15 years vestment in a state retirement plan.

Quite a few employers offer tuition reimbursement - like the hospital I was a people-pusher in for 8 years. Earned some money, met a lot of folks, saw a lot of jobs (what triggered me to go to school) and even met my wife. Buddy of mine I got a job at the hospital for did his AS in nuke med technician w/ state license after and not only did hospital pay his school fees 100% at end of each term but they gave him a good paying job working at a facility near a beach and paid his moving expenses.

[911boost]

We went through this during 2020/2021 as my daughter graduated last May. She was a two sport athlete, great grades and lots of volunteer work. She had considered soccer at a smaller school and decided to focus entirely on academics in college.

Schools were throwing money at her and she had her pick of her few favorites. Of course she was not looking at engineering so that is different and is at KU. Absolutely loves it and is thinking of playing woman's club soccer next year after meeting with the coach.

Good luck to your son!

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Seahawk thanks. The sports portion has been a hard earned lesson i can tell you that. Whole industries exist to separate hopeful parents from their dollars.

I can only imagine how much data is out there on athletes today at the HS level in all sports.

My son was an excellent cross country runner in HS and could have run for VMI. While much different from the revenue sports, he was badgered a bit by the coaches to run. He declined. He was on an ROTC scholarship so his point to me was: "I need to get smart and focus on being great at being an Army Officer, not finishing mid pack in a Southern Conference Cross Country Meet."

The kids generally know before the parents do where they really fit.

MRM's comments on non D1 schools is excellent.

[berettafan]

I've been advocating club sports for him. He says focusing on the academics is what he wants for college now (but again would no doubt jump at chance to play if offered).

I should add there does seem to be additional challenge in getting accepted to schools where engineering is your stated interest. Might have more choices had he gone with general ed but my understanding is it can be just as or more difficult to get into the eng. program after the fact. Believe i saw the same for architecture.

[mepstein]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

Getting an internship after graduation is your next step in leveraging that degree for the future.

Find a technical fellowship program in your Son's engineering field too.

My son and most of his friends had their paid internships the summer before their senior year. They went into their senior year of college with accepted job offers. The top companies don’t wait until graduation to start hiring.