Jeff:
I guess my point is that is why the case has the extra material where it does. To handle the unsupported case.

The extra meat is in the base.

Pic here, about half way down. I have trouble with pics from my phone, so apologies.

http://www.45super.com/Real%20Guns%20-%20A%20kimber%20in%20.45%20Super%20for%20$8.htm

Tadd, the extra thickness in the case web area is, indeed, meant to allow for higher pressures. That is absolutely why it is there. However, this extra material is still not enough to allow for its use in an unsupported chamber. It needs both to be safe - the thicker brass and a fully supported chamber to operate safely at the pressures it generates.

Jeff: I respect your opinion when it comes to firearms. I may be wrong but it was my understanding that the Blackhawk Flat Top New Model was not designed for +P loads in the 45 Colt. I can tell you that I can see a thinner inner wall of the cylinder of the Colt cylinder. Here is a pic (not mine) sent to me to explain the thinner wall between chambers on the upper (and shorter) cylinder
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1657246604.jpg

There is a lot of confusion and misinformation out there surrounding the .45 Colt and higher pressure loads, Joe. There are now, essentially, at least three "categories" of .45 Colt revolver. There used to be only two, large frame Ruger Blackhawks and everything else. That "everything else" included original Colts and their various clones, S&W M25's, and similar guns. Ruger's re-introduction of the small frame Flat Top, and their down-sizing of the Vaquero to the New Vaquero, kind of muddied the waters. They are "neither fish nor fowl", not as "weak" as the Colts, not as strong as the large frame Blackhawks.

It's unfortunate that Mr. Pearce's article is behind a subscription wall. He explains it far better than I can. In it, he outlines loads that will run up to 23,000 psi. SAAMI list 14,000 psi as maximum for the .45 Colt. Mr. Pearce's loads are tested in the Western Powders ballistic laboratory, and have been deemed safe in the "in between" revolvers listed in his article, including the New Model Flat Top. By way of comparison, "Ruger only" loads listed in the various reloading manuals will top 28,000 psi. (still far below .44 and .357 mag pressures of 36,000 psi). Those loads would, indeed, be unsafe in the New Model Flat Top.

I believe that is why Ruger will not allow for higher pressures in the New Model Flat Top. They are erring on the side of caution, understanding that many will not be aware of the two different Ruger frame sizes and just go ahead and load up their Flat Tops from the "Ruger only" data that's out there. "It's a Ruger, isn't it?"

All of that said, there is absolutely nothing wanting in standard pressure .45 Colt loads. I used to load the bejeebers out of this round for my Rugers and Virginian Dragoon. I used to load 300 grain bullets in them (and my .44 mags) for maximum velocities. Killed a fair amount of game with both. Then one day I went hunting with a 7 1/2" Peacemaker loaded with black powder loads, a 250 grain bullet over 40 grains of FFFg for about 950 fps. I guess I didn't really know what to expect from such a relatively "anemic" load - would it just bounce off of a big mulie?

I need not have worried. I took a nice representative 4x4 buck at about 40 yards, broadside. Broke both shoulders and exited. I couldn't believe it. Raised on bucking, booming .44 mags, heavy .45 Colts, even the .454 Casull, this just couldn't be. Could it? Subsequent hunts, over many years, demonstrated that yes, indeed, it was true. Mule deer, elk, and black bear all fell to these "anemic" standard velocity .45 Colt loads. We really don't need anything more.

Yup. Common terms are Tier 1 (SAAMI) Tier 2 (up to 23,000) and Tier 3 (over 30,000). I am fairly confident that my revolver will handle tier 2 without issue.

I'm looking at the wiki stubs for each

45 super runs at 28ksi and 45 acp runs at 21ksi

not a huge difference but I wouldn't want to run any 45 super thru my colt

gotta add a little more

the delta P is significant between the two cartriges but I doubt it would cause a 45 acp colt to blow up

not like I would volunteer to find out

I've been reloading since I was in college and I've had nothing worse than firing a round that didn't get a load of powder. The primer was enough to wedge the bullet into the lands. That was with pistols. With rifles the only boo-boo I've done is overwork brass and it caused cracks in the neck. Maybe I had one head separation. I've learned to look for signs of overpressure in the brass, fortunately not the hard way but from reading the reloading books.

I would like to know why Dean Grennel chose this path.

You should always know the history of the ammo you shoot in your gun. Just look up Kentucky Ballistics on youtube to see why.

shooting mystery ammo is like eating mystery meat

Thanks, I had not realized that SAAMI had broken this down into three categories. I guess I haven't been paying attention. And yes, you are right (according to Mr. Pearce and others), your New Model Flat Top will happily digest "Tier 2" 23,000 psi loads.

I think maybe one of the other issues that makes Ruger hesitant to acknowledge this might be the fact that no one loads "Tier 2" commercially. I may be wrong, but I believe there are only standard pressure, "Tier 3" like Buffalo Bore and others, and "Cowboy" with markedly reduced pressure and velocity to reduce recoil for that game.

My loading manuals do not include "Tier 2", but they are getting a little old, and should probably be updated. Do you know if any of the latest manuals show "Tier 2"?

Jeff,
I always enjoy your posts. You have a nice collection of arms and are very knowledgeable.


Makes us think about the better mousetrap. Can we -yes, should we -sometimes not. Thats how wild-catting works. If something can be improved humans tend to tinker. Sometimes it actually catches on and gets adopted in the Saami hall of fame.

I prefer the 45acp as is. 100 plus years of R&D has already been done. Its a fun round, reasonably light recoil and accurate. Easy to reload for. Put that together in a 1911 and the rest is history.


Reminds me of the 17MM Mufuh cartride. Why? Hunting an entire Elephant herd with a single bullet? Somebody built that mousetrap.

Everyone has choices. Have fun and most of all be safe. Have a sense of humor.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1657308924.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1657308950.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1657308974.jpg

To be clear: I am not a reloader but have talked to many who use the Tier 1-2-3 terminology so this may be more of a common understanding than a technical specification. As you know many will reference their formula to be sure that the psi is under what they consider to be the safe level and everyone has their own "secret recipe". As you have said, the scary part comes in when newbees don't properly measure (or worse) overload the round and do harm to their firearm and themselves.

Thank you Jeff, I really appreciate that. It probably doesn't need saying, but this has obviously been a lifelong passion of mine. It's one of those perfect "engineering geek" hobbies from the purely mechanical and physical perspective. Add to that my love of hunting, and my inherently competitive nature, and I have two ready outlets that provide all the excuses I need to continue to pursue this. It's been a lot of fun for me.

Thanks for the clarification, Joe. The classifications do make sense, regardless whether they are "officially" adopted. The .45 Colt is unique in that it is chambered in such a broad variety of firearms with such widely differing safe limits. About the only cartridge I can think of that has a similarly broad range of firearms in which it is chambered is the old .45-70. Interestingly, they hail from the same year, being adopted by the Army all but simultaneously. And both remain, 150 years later, eminently useful in all of their guises, and remain shooters' favorites as well.

I can't find any info on this. Can you point me in the right direction to learn more about it?

Its was just a short lived one off wild cat.

The parent case is a 50 BMG cut just below the shoulder. Case trim length is 2.840.
800 grain hard cast bullet alloyed from 3% tin, 8% antimony and 89% lead. Clip on lead wheel weights and some added linotype was added to increase the antimonial content to reduce the land and grove leading.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1657376815.jpg

John "Pondoro" Taylor had a lot to say about oversized cartridges like that. He made a clear distinction between hunting rifles and stopping rifles. One hunted with the hunting rifle and only traded with the gun bearer for the stopping rifle when needed.

No professionals, until relatively recently, hunted with the big bores, like the .577 and .600 Nitro Expresses. They all hunt with the .375 H&H, .404 Jeffrey, .416 Rigby or Remington, or the .458 Winchester Magnum. And they prefer that we do as well. Nothing concerns a PH more than having some client show up with a big double in one of the "stopping" calibers. They know darn good and well that the guy is terrified of it and is going to flinch even at the thought of pulling the trigger.

It's weird, though, the whole darn thing has gotten so expensive (I remember when hunting somewhere in Africa, on a "plains game" hunt, was half the cost of a brown bear hunt in Alaska), that it attracts a different clientele these days. Lots of parallels to my beloved long hood 911's, but I digress... Anyway, the very well heeled that can still afford to go somehow feel obligated to show up with some big bore double in one of the big "stopping" calibers. Frail little guys in their 70's showing up with a Best Quality Holland and Holland double in .577 Nitro... The dirty little secret is that he either uses the PH's .375, then poses with his expensive double with the dead animal, of the PH just shoots it for him. And, well, they expect the PH to be toting some fancy big bore double as well. It's all about the image and expectations.

I remember many years ago when one of these guys showed up at out club range with a Holland double in .577 Nitro. He was proud to tell us that the Kynoch ammo for it costs $80.00 per round. The guy was in his mid 70's, weighed maybe 150 pounds soaking wet, and was terrified to shoot it. Yet he was heading to the Dark Continent in a month or two. I offered one of my .375's, but he was having none of that. He was going to use his new double on his dream hunt. O.k., but you will have to practice with it a bit... He was having none of that either.

He knew he had to verify the zero, or so he thought. Holland actually does that for you when they regulate it. But he wanted to be sure... but didn't want to shoot it. So I did. Four rounds, a couple of "doubles" or "left and rights".

Holy Mother of God - I think I was in my late 40's, maybe early 50's, and relatively "fit" for my age. And I'm a big guy - 6'1", 250 pound former weight lifter. And this sonofabytch absolutely rocked my world. I looked it up later - better than double the recoil of my .458 Win Mag. Hell, I flinch to this very day just reading ".577...". I bet that rifle would actually physically injure that poor little guy. And I bet he never did fire it, in spite of all the dead animal pictures with him proudly holding it that he was showing off a year later.

This month's America Rifleman has an article recounting the development of the .700 Nitro Express. It's a fun read about an absolutely useless rifle and cartridge.

I have shot both 600 and 700 Nitro Express. You start out leaning forward like Groucho Marx in anticipation of both the recoil and concussion. After the bang end up in an erect position like you would be in position to shoot trap or skeet. It all happens instantaneously and is quite entertaining to watch someone fire these.

I owned a Sako TRG in 338 Lapua. When I first got it I had not decided on which brake I was going with but really wanted to get it to the range. Even with no brake it was not nearly as stiff a recoil impulse as any of soul taking cartridges.

Nothing like the Nitros though which I felt was like a Chiropractic visit in the Twilight Zone.

Sometimes we just have to scratch our heads and wonder why?

"Sometimes we just have to scratch our heads and wonder why? "
Bragging rights at the country club.

Maybe it should go in the little known fact for the day thread instead.

A .45 colt can be fired in a .410 shotgun. Why you would want to and also the .410 may blow up. But you can.

All I have to say is I envy you guys whose hands can still handle such a cartridge.