Exclusive Arrangements

[stomachmonkey]

Happy Saturday All.

HOA related topic here.

For background I live in a fairly large HOA managed community.

We have pretty nice and extensive amenities, 5 pools, 2 fitness centers, Tennis, Basketball, couple of miles of hiking trails, 18 hole Golf Course, the works.

With the exception of the Golf Course all community facilities are maintained by our HOA contributions which is actually reasonable all things considered.

Naturally that mean every resident has full access to those HOA maintained amenities at obviously no additional cost.

Something that is a recurring bone of contention is personal trainers at the Fitness Centers.

There is a private for profit business, BB, who pays a fee, something ridiculously cheap like $1,500 per month, to use the community fitness centers to conduct bootcamps, personal training. Residents who want to work out with them obviously pay them for their services which is all fine so far.

Where it becomes problematic is it's an exclusive agreement with the HOA meaning residents can not bring in their own preferred personal trainer.

I have a trainer, he is also a resident so pays into the HOA same as everyone else.

I have to work out with him in his barely climate controlled gym in his garage either freezing or sweating my balls off depending the time of year as he is not allowed to train me at the community facilities.

If he and I were to go to one of the weight rooms as buds to work out together it's fine. As soon as it's deemed that he is "training" me it's a problem.

If trainers from BB deem training is happening they tell residents they have to leave the facility.

We have had instances of parents with their teens working out were it was deemed the parent was training their kid and been asked to leave.

As you can imagine that can get confrontational in a hurry and IMHO justifiably so.

We had an occurrence of this again this week and there is drama.

There are basically two camps going at each other over it.

1) I'm a resident who pays for the maintenance of the the facility and I'll be damned if a for profit company that was given an exclusive contract to offer paid training is going to tell me I can't use a facility in which I'm a fractional owner.

2) We love BB, they are awesome people who do so much for the community and their services are way cheaper and more convenient than going to Lifetime Fitness so everyone leave them alone and stop slandering them.

I happen to be in camp 1.

The frustration for camp 1 folk is we are not condemning BB, the business itself, we have a major issue with paying for a facility and not being able to use it under certain circumstance because of the exclusive agreement some prior version of the HOA saw fit to allow but the camp 2 people think we are attacking the business.

They don't seem to understand that BB is so price competitive because their operating costs are close to non existent. Of course they can offer low rates, they are paying peanuts for a fully equipped facility with no out of pocket maintenance or even utility expenses.

What they pay for using our facilities would get them an empty 1,000 sq ft space in the business park down the road with no utilities included and they'd have the capital expense of a full build out and equipment.

It's been coming out the last few days that BB's agreement is not the only one. The same arrangement exists for the businesses providing Tennis and Swimming instructors. I suspect they've flown under the radar as they've never confronted residents over it.

Most troubling is the current or some past HOA are the ones who have instructed these outside for profit businesses to report training / coaching / instruction when they see it occurring.

The HOA justification for all this is the pretty standard "liability concerns" which I call bull**** on. If I use a facility and injure myself because I used a piece of equipment incorrectly thats 100% on me. If I give my kid poor instruction on using a piece of equipment and he gets injured that also is 100% on me.

Admittedly it does get messier with paid trainers / coaches. You don't really want people using our facilities to drum up clients. Paid trainers should pay a fee to the HOA and should be properly certified / licensed and carry the required liability coverage.

And yes, controlling the number of paid trainers / coaches is reasonable to prevent over saturating the facilities.

Sorry that was a long way to get to my point.

Should for profit businesses be granted exclusive agreements to use facilities paid for by residents to the detriment of a portion of those same residents?

I say no.

What say you?

[masraum]

This sounds like one of those situations where an HOA or apt/condo mgmt company allows a tow company to tow people, and the tow company goes way over the line to make business.

[Norm K]

Are you using "HOA" and "HOA managed" interchangeably?

Large HOAs typically have management companies oversee the implementation/enforcement of the HOA/C&C rules and regulations, as spelled out in the corresponding documents. In some states (often with the exception of de minimis HOAs) associations are compelled by law to be managed by a "professional" management company.

I'm wondering who cut these deals with the third-party businesses; the actual HOA or the HOA management company, and is the authority for them to do that granted in the C&Cs?

In any case, you and your neighbors are the HOA and can adjust or change whichever rules or regulations you wish, provided doing so doesn't run afoul of local laws and is done in accordance with the prevailing docs, copies of which every homeowner should have.

Good luck reaching an amicable resolution.

_

[Seahawk]

I cannot possibly imagine that your trainer, also a resident, can't provide "advice" to you without causing any ruckus.

Otherwise, your community sounds ideal.

BOL.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Norm K

I'm wondering who cut these deals with the third-party businesses; the actual HOA or the HOA management company, and is the authority for them to do that granted in the C&Cs?

And did they receive any sort of kickback to make that deal...

[A930Rocket]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I cannot possibly imagine that your trainer, also a resident, can't provide "advice" to you without causing any ruckus.

Otherwise, your community sounds ideal.

BOL.

I’m in the same boat. I can’t fathom that a neighbor and HOA member cannot instruct you. Nor a parent instructing a child.

That has to be a level of reason, but even two people can’t find it sometimes.

[john70t]

I imagine there are a tons of legal layers involved:
-local/state laws regarding licensing of your trainer and whether they can do business at the HOA
-your purchasing contract with the HOA as to being guaranteed access rights to facilities
-the HOA contract with BB as to exclusivity

If your friend is acting in official capacity, paid with a paper trail, and doing business at the HOA without permission, then he/you are in violation. If you are working out as friends then the HOA is in violation. I suspect if enough people complain on paper they may eventually reconsider having BB there.

[stomachmonkey]

It’s unclear if when HOA is being referred to wether it means the board or the Management Company.

I suspect the later.

This deal has been in place since the board was still in developers control.

It’s only been the last 5 years or so that residents have started gaining seats.

We are finally completely built out so this year the developer has to exit and the board will be fully resident run.

And yes, apparently it applies to any resident training / coaching even their kid on common community grounds or facilities.

Obviously does not apply to our own homes but the whole thing is still bull****.

Seems to me it may all be the result of a litigation adverse Management Company.

As in the less they allow the less they get sued.

[john70t]

BB has an agreement, an anti-competitive monopoly with the Mngmt company. As it stands they have to back BB or risk litigation.
That is bs but seems to be the controlling factor as of now.

"This deal has been in place since the board was still in developers control."
I read this as all or most owners knowingly bought into this situation and agreed to it before home purchase..

With the place so large, it would be an uphill battle to get the majority of owners to pressure the HOA to change the Management contract.

On an individual basis it would be denial of contracted amenities and/or harassment. Can o worms. Geesh

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by john70t

I read this as all or most owners knowingly bought into this situation and agreed to it before home purchase.

Well that’s kinda how these things all work.

Developer needs to maintain control while the buildout is in progress / until complete.

No one will financially back the development of what’s effectively a town or small city without a garauntee no one can toss tacks in the road.

If you meant we knew about the exclusive agreements then no. None of that was ever disclosed and likely didn’t need to be, legally. We’ve only become aware from the occasions where it’s created drama.

One instance was last year when a trainer tried to boot a dad and his son claiming the kid needed to be 17 to use the equipment. 16 is the cut off and he was 16. Then she started taking pictures of them which set off the dad, as it should, and **** got ugly.

The entire 5 person board turns over this year and the developer is completely out of the picture.

Most of the presumptive new board members, of which I am one, hate the exclusive agreements so they may not exist much longer.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

It’s unclear if when HOA is being referred to wether it means the board or the Management Company.

I suspect the later.

This deal has been in place since the board was still in developers control.

It’s only been the last 5 years or so that residents have started gaining seats.

We are finally completely built out so this year the developer has to exit and the board will be fully resident run.

And yes, apparently it applies to any resident training / coaching even their kid on common community grounds or facilities.

Obviously does not apply to our own homes but the whole thing is still bull****.

Seems to me it may all be the result of a litigation adverse Management Company.

As in the less they allow the less they get sued.

Once the developers leave things can be changed. I wonder what sort of kick-back the developers got, who's cousin runs BB.

Sounds like a load of crap, and a good reason to avoid neighborhoods with HOAs or at least active HOAs. For 17 years, we lived in a neighborhood with an HOA (neighborhood from the 60s/70s), but I never heard a thing from or about them. I think the dues were either $50/yr or maybe 75/yr. I think I remember hearing once that one of the officers had been embezzling.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Well that’s kinda how these things all work.

Developer needs to maintain control while the buildout is in progress / until complete.

No one will financially back the development of what’s effectively a town or small city without a garauntee no one can toss tacks in the road.

If you meant we knew about the exclusive agreements then no. None of that was ever disclosed and likely didn’t need to be, legally. We’ve only become aware from the occasions where it’s created drama.

One instance was last year when a trainer tried to boot a dad and his son claiming the kid needed to be 17 to use the equipment. 16 is the cut off and he was 16. Then she started taking pictures of them which set off the dad, as it should, and **** got ugly.

The entire 5 person board turns over this year and the developer is completely out of the picture.

Most of the presumptive new board members, of which I am one, hate the exclusive agreements so they may not exist much longer.

Sounds like a crap situation that's likely to improve very soon. Congrats!

[john70t]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

The entire 5 person board turns over this year and the developer is completely out of the picture.

Hah. That's what I was told when I bought my first place, young grasshopper.

Developer did not leave. What followed was multiple lawsuits with legal demand for association change per the documents, plus unanimous vote by all owners, twice, obvious grand larceny and self payments on what limited records we had, enduring years of drunken email insult rants, some owners not paying dues for years, including the majority developer, some owners being foreclosed on for $50 in disputed fines, several lawsuits against the association and potentially myself by the same people I tried to help, lying turncoat personalities revealed, chaos, drug dealing, commercial drug growing, and daycare being run out of it, the building falling apart with three ceilings in my unit falling in, trash galore, incomplete shared expense agreements with a shared driveway and expenses, and about 2/3-3/4 of the small owners on the edge going into foreclosure rather than dealing with it all.

It all got better after turnover. Only the extensive cleanup bill and hard earned wisdom continues.

[greglepore]

I say no as well.
Scenario-you're not paying your trainer (in theory-b/c I don't know) BB comes over and tells him to stop. They likely have no enforceable right to do so-I suspect their exclusivity agreement either explicitly or implicitly only is exclusive as to PAID trainers. They are way out of line when they tell others to stop doing anything, they don't manage the facility, they simply have an exclusive right to train. Next time they tell someone to "stop" they need to be told that they can report such conduct to the board but they aren't allowed to "police" the gym.

[Zeke]

I can see with an 'exclusive' agreement that outside trainers cannot come in. A fellow member seemingly has every right as you do whether you're shooting the breeze while using equipment or he is spotting you when lifting.

If this is a real problem and you can't get a resolution, then maybe do your training with you trainer using subtle methods such as hand signals, or even a text if some method of training has to be discussed. I for sure would take videos of any questionable enforcement by the licensed trainers against members communicating with other members.

And, BTW, what is the enforcement or penalty? What if you and your buddy are working out and someone comes over from the company? What happens if you say mind your own business, we're members here?

Sounds like a gray area that you need to change the shade to black and white. They gonna sue? Hopefully a community that large has an attorney on retainer.

And how do you feel about the outside people that come for boot camp? For $1500/mo. I'd give them the boot.

[masraum]

Find the real life cast of "Yellowstone" to have a "chat" with 'em?
I've never seen Yellowstone, but this sort of thing seems like it sends a message.

[stevej37]

Never been part of an HOA community.
Having neighbors close by...everything seems to work out right without it.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by stevej37

Never been part of an HOA community.
Having neighbors close by...everything seems to work out right without it.

Or even better, no HOA and no neighbors close by.

[A930Rocket]

I would hope BB would be out of the pictures once the homeowners take over the HOA. They certainly have not earned their stay. Or at least for the new set of ground rules.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by john70t

Hah. That's what I was told when I bought my first place, young grasshopper.

Developer did not leave. What followed was multiple lawsuits with legal demand for association change per the documents, plus unanimous vote by all owners, twice, obvious grand larceny and self payments on what limited records we had, enduring years of drunken email insult rants, some owners not paying dues for years, including the majority developer, some owners being foreclosed on for $50 in disputed fines, several lawsuits against the association and potentially myself by the same people I tried to help, lying turncoat personalities revealed, chaos, drug dealing, commercial drug growing, and daycare being run out of it, the building falling apart with three ceilings in my unit falling in, trash galore, incomplete shared expense agreements with a shared driveway and expenses, and about 2/3-3/4 of the small owners on the edge going into foreclosure rather than dealing with it all.

It all got better after turnover. Only the extensive cleanup bill and hard earned wisdom continues.

And this is why I will never live in a HOA community.