Home electric troubleshooting

masraum · 06-17-2023, 04:27 PM

We had a kitchen remodel done by a GC. He had some guys come out to do some electrical. They didn't quite finish. Before the GC had the electric guys come back, we fired the GC. I don't think the electric guys would want to come back out to finish because it's a tiny job that would probably involve 4 hours of driving for them, and I don't think this is anything that I can't do. Like plumbing, electrical isn't rocket surgery.

Everything in the kitchen works except 4 outlets. This is what I see when I look at the 4 outlets. (I'm not going to mention the bare/ground, those all look good and are a given)

2 adjacent outlets look like this

1 outlet looks like this

And the outlet closest to ^that^ one looks like this

I think that possibly the electrical guys may have realized there was a problem, but it was the end of the day and they expected to come back and didn't finish, because this circuit looks like it's 99% of the way there.

I remember someone saying "we don't have it connected to the breaker." In the breaker box, I've got a breaker similar to the one below that looks new that's only got one circuit on it.

In the box, there's a new wire coming in that has the white and ground wired to the ground bar, and the black is not connected.

Seems pretty straight forward, right, connect the black and done.

When I connect the black and flip the breaker, it immediately flips. I'm pretty sure this is all newly run wire for these 4 new outlets. All of the wire connections look right (white/white/silver, black/black/brass, ground/ground/ground).

I put a tester on set to continuity. If I check between the various outlets on the black side, I get continuity. If I check on the white side I get continuity. If I check between the white and black I do NOT get continuity. (I would think a short would show continuity, right?).

I guess my next test will be to start at what I think the first outlet is, disconnect the line, wire up the ckt breaker, and see if it's good. Then wire the first outlet with the load disconnected and see if it's good, and proceed through the 4 outlets until something fails. (assuming I get past step 1).

I'm mostly posting this as a way for me to "verbalize" it (sometimes that helps) and in case any of you have an idea (hey, I've run into this silly mistake before, maybe you're having the same problem). You guys have certainly proven useful for many of us many times before.

Thanks.

masraum · 06-17-2023, 04:39 PM

Step 1 - Success. Completely disconnect what I thought was the first outlet. Wire up the breaker. Turn it on. Black wire shows hot. Now I'll wire up the first breaker without the load side and see if it's still good. Only 4 breakers....

rockfan4 · 06-17-2023, 04:49 PM

Metal boxes, or plastic / fiberglass / other?

I would check how the outlets are tucked into the boxes, and make sure one of the grounds isn't inadvertently touching the hot side of an outlet.

masraum · 06-17-2023, 04:54 PM

The two adjacent outlets either side of the spot for the stove are good.

Next, the third outlet is the one that looks like this.

It looks good, but then it's inside at the back of a cabinet and a real beyotch to see and get to. It's the one where I've been thinking maybe something was wrong, but I looked really closely with a flashlight and it all looks good. We'll see in a few mins.

masraum · 06-17-2023, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockfan4

Metal boxes, or plastic / fiberglass / other?

I would check how the outlets are tucked into the boxes, and make sure one of the grounds isn't inadvertently touching the hot side of an outlet.

All plastic boxes, and the boxes are all extra deep. Good point on the ground issue. Thanks, I'll check that!

masraum · 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockfan4

make sure one of the grounds isn't inadvertently touching the hot side of an outlet.

BAM! I can't say for sure that was the problem, but I think that was 99% likely the issue.

THANK YOU!

I haven't changed any wiring other than to pull the outlets out of the boxes to get to them (which straightens and untangles the wires). I reconnected the wires that I had disconnected and then flipped the breaker and all is good.

All I have to do now is get the breakers back in the boxes without causing another short and I'm good to go. Thanks, I didn't want to have to do that third outlet!

masraum · 06-17-2023, 05:28 PM

Everything is good so far. I'm certain that it was one of the first two outlets.

But, "while I'm in there," I'm going to rewire the outlet that's wired like this

To be wired like this. Because even with the deep boxes, having an extra 18-24" of wire in the box is a real PITA to deal with. And there's plenty of wire on the line and load side.

look 171 · 06-17-2023, 08:05 PM

Glad it worked our for you plus, you don't look too good with curly hair. All you need is to have 7-8" of wired sticking out of the box. connect that to the outlet and push them back in the box, tighten outlets and you are goo to go. I hate fighting wired in electrical boxes especially 12 gauge wires.

masraum · 06-17-2023, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by look 171

Glad it worked our for you plus, you don't look too good with curly hair. All you need is to have 7-8" of wired sticking out of the box. connect that to the outlet and push them back in the box, tighten outlets and you are goo to go. I hate fighting wired in electrical boxes especially 12 gauge wires.

yep, 12 gauge is a pain to deal with.

The GC did the outlet installs. When he pushed them back into the boxes he twisted them. I think that's where the triple started

gumby · 06-18-2023, 03:44 AM

I like to wrap a bit of electric tape around the outlet to insulate against the possibiltiy of the ground touching

Rusty Heap · Rusty Heap's Garage

billybek · billybek's Garage

It was allowable here at one time to wire kitchen plugs with two different 120 vac feeds. Between each feed you would measure 240 vac of potential. The jumper bar between the two sides of the plug would be cut with this set-up.
With this configuration, the two feeds would share a neutral.
When I saw your two pole breaker I thought that might be the way that your plugs would be wired but then I read that there was only one wire connected, that eliminated that possibility.

I like your solution to utilize the terminals instead of the wire nuts/marrettes.

craigster59 · craigster59's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by gumby

I like to wrap a bit of electric tape around the outlet to insulate against the possibiltiy of the ground touching

I do this also. The good thing about doing electrical is that it usually tells you right away if you screwed up.

masraum · 06-18-2023, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gumby

I like to wrap a bit of electric tape around the outlet to insulate against the possibiltiy of the ground touching

Nice, I'll do that.

Pazuzu · 06-18-2023, 06:34 AM

Is the first outlet a GFCI? It should be...
They're wired such that the input and output (line/load) wires are separate on the outlet body as shown. That makes sense.

The third outlet was wired fine, and makes swapping out a receptacle ever so slightly easier (only 2 wires, quick to do). Changing it over is also fine, obviously. Last outlet looks like the last outlet of a chain.

masraum · 06-18-2023, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craigster59

I do this also. The good thing about doing electrical is that it usually tells you right away if you screwed up.

LOL! Yes it does, often with a full audio-visual display.

masraum · 06-18-2023, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Is the first outlet a GFCI? It should be...
They're wired such that the input and output (line/load) wires are separate on the outlet body as shown. That makes sense.

The third outlet was wired fine, and makes swapping out a receptacle ever so slightly easier (only 2 wires, quick to do). Changing it over is also fine, obviously. Last outlet looks like the last outlet of a chain.

Yeah all of the outlets were wired OK. The main reason that I changed the one is because the box was tight enough without the extra 18 or so inches of 12awg wire and 3 nuts. Dealing with boxes that are packed full of wire and nuts sucks if you don't have to.

Pazuzu · 06-18-2023, 06:39 AM

Also, run down the street (

) and get yo self an outlet checker. Little orange or yellow thing that plugs into a (live) outlet and lights tell you if you messed up the wiring. Works great for an outlet that doesn't blow a breaker, but also doesn't work. Also tells you if you missed a proper ground.

masraum · 06-18-2023, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Also, run down the street (

) and get yo self an outlet checker. Little orange or yellow thing that plugs into a (live) outlet and lights tell you if you messed up the wiring. Works great for an outlet that doesn't blow a breaker, but also doesn't work. Also tells you if you missed a proper ground.

I've got 3 and they integrate an GFCI tester.. I had one, couldn't find it so bought another. I bought an outlet/breaker trace tool where the transmitter is also a tester. I've also got one of the little tools that squeals when a wire is live.

Gogar · 06-18-2023, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Also, run down the street (

) and get yo self an outlet checker. Little orange or yellow thing that plugs into a (live) outlet and lights tell you if you messed up the wiring. Works great for an outlet that doesn't blow a breaker, but also doesn't work. Also tells you if you missed a proper ground.

And while you're there get one of these. Really makes things easier when you're trying to find the run that's hot and the runs that are not!