Wow - newly rebuilt BMC engine doing some crazy things...
 

Hi all. Thanks in advance for your help. I'm well versed in Porsche and BMW engines, having written a few books on them, but this early English stuff is giving me fits! BMC B-Series engine, tuned by Janspeed, installed in a 1969 Adams Probe 16 (one of three made - Kubrick used a Probe 16 in the Clockwork Orange - truly a unique and unusual car). Anyways, the engine was rebuilt, and I've been having issues with it. I'm going back and forth with the rebuilder, but I thought I would post here for some input.

I can add more later, but the crux is - after mucking with it for hours, I finally got it running well enough to take it on a drive through SoCal. After about 20 miles or so, I parked it in a lot, and noticed it was *dumping* oil out the bottom of the engine. Not where the shift cables go, but near where the bellhousing meets the engine/transmission. It's a bit hard to explain, I will post some photos.

At the same time, there was some type of smoke coming from the hole where the starter disconnect is located. It did not smell like clutch smoke, or burned oil - it pretty much had almost no odor whatsoever. It did not smell like coolant. Very, very odd. Very, very odd. I have video and I have photos. I also have no clue where the oil came from. I removed the engine, and took it back to the shop, and they put a scope down there and said it looked dry. Wow, nearly impossible. They also ran it on the bench in the dyno room and it was bone dry. I saw it running myself. I'm completely flabbergasted, as this engine was an environmental disaster site when I brought it home.

They suggested that it was pouring out of the shift cables, but I highly doubt that - it doesn't appear that way on the video. Frankly, I do feel silly, as I would have paid much more attention and took many more photos if I thought that the problem would just magically disappear. I thought it was a main seal popping out (I was sure of this), but that wouldn't just seal itself. Everyone here (including the folks at the shop) are confused.

Thoughts?

links to some videos:

https://rdwdevelopmentcom-my.sharepoint.com/:v:/g/personal/wayne_dempseymotorsports_com/ERXiwjW4UbJGiT4XPbBKykEBrWvBzXZDKZGeGpOZwp6wTQ?e=c pf913

https://rdwdevelopmentcom-my.sharepoint.com/:v:/g/personal/wayne_dempseymotorsports_com/ESoj3-vh97tFj_a_R1swezEBSKPfOOWRRko7-p9xIScLbw?e=9VaCbq

https://rdwdevelopmentcom-my.sharepoint.com/:v:/g/personal/wayne_dempseymotorsports_com/Ec_JaB2CQqBEiA-1Ob3eVbkBoxFM8KavZ2nVrrfUwc_QJA?e=gxPQcw

https://rdwdevelopmentcom-my.sharepoint.com/:v:/g/personal/wayne_dempseymotorsports_com/EV_S4zHYHxVNt-B09vhMJrgBoPJtNYzFXLPT_1MrMXQYmg?e=CU3nrv

https://rdwdevelopmentcom-my.sharepoint.com/:v:/g/personal/wayne_dempseymotorsports_com/EYh-uzcxysJAsoXKJWdC3RIBW67WWpj1JQ53XBBTJuvShw?e=ndBd9 s

-Wayne

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688964477.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688964477.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688964477.JPG
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688964477.JPG


Oil is just pouring out:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688964477.JPG

Here's a photo of what my driveway looked like after putting it away in the garage!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1688964777.jpg

-Wayne

Without knowing the engine architecture or what we are looking at, it’s difficult to be much help.

It is possible it is overzealous use of engine assembly lube (not lubriplate grease) that is working it’s way out of places it shouldn’t be? Is it left over solvents or grease from solvent tanking that when heated up have mobilized? Are there nooks and crannies in this engine / transmission / bell housing that could trap grease?

That looks like a lot of oil, whatever the source. Did the engine oil level drop? What about the transaxle oil level?

Before I converted to a Porsche in the garage, my gateway drug was a 65 MGB. Same engine. I haven’t written any books and am not an expert. But, I first thought main seal as well.

But you know who would be worth consulting? Some British car nuts. I suggest a different forum. This isn’t a Probe question. It is a BMC engine question.

Keep us posted!

I had the same thought re the smoke, some residue from the rebuild burning off.

You wanna be careful there.

Brake cleaner works so well people use it for all manner of general purpose stuff.

Problem with it is if it heats up to the point where it's smoking what you've now got is Phosgene.

Phosgene is WWl era chemical warfare ****.

You don't want to breath that in so until you know what you are dealing with take precautions.

Hard to find chlorinated brake cleaner AFAIK. I have never once seen a can for sale in 15 years. That's actually a little see time than when I was first informed.

AFA the Probe goes, I didn't know shift cables had oil in them, of if they were supposed to. What fittings are above the bellhousing?

Rings not sealing pressurizing crankcase?

These engines were made to leak. Maybe the rear engine backing plate or the rear side cover (tappet cover)?

Whoops, typo - changed BMW to BMC!

-Wayne

I thought it might be the main seal - the shop has the engine and has run it for about 15 min with no leaks now. Go figure. I'm at a loss. I was there last week - not leaking. I'm completely confused.

The smoking - this was after about 20-30 hrs of already running, so any residual that was there before would presumably been burned off. But good warning / thinking though regardless! Phosgene - still remember that Winnebago scene from Breaking Bad...

-Wayne

I assume the orientation of image 1 is looking down from above in image 2 right corner top.
I'm wondering what is different between 'in car' and 'on bench' as far as the engine goes.
Is the piece that is shown to the right of the aluminum adapter plate in image 2 attached when the engine is run 'on the bench'?

Based on the amount of dripping shown in your videos I'd say you're looking for a pressurized leak source and one that may only open up after it gets hotter than 15 minutes of running on a bench gets it.

Wow. That thing was really bleeding oil in second video.

It's hard to get a feel from the pics, especially having never seen the engine. Do you have a video of it running on the dyno so show all the rear bolts and nooks and crannies so we can see?

Also, did you split the engine and tranny for the dyno? Was the bell housing clean? I swear that would have some oil somewhere.

Also, now that engine is out, can you examine shift cables to confirm they are internally dry (prob. not the problem but to rule out)?

Long shot idea- also is there any chance a connector bolt on that engine /trans type is connected to an oil source/passage and is getting pressurized oil past the threads?

I'm sure you've done all this already. I think LWJ's bmc suggestion is right on the money if it's an engine leak.

edit- I don't know what I'm looking at, but with a name like "leaky" I've got to give it a try :)

Being around engines somewhat when something is different because it's bolted up or not bolted up, I'd be looking at that from a simple logic and deduction POV. So what do I know about those engines? Nuffin.

However, I would take the tranny to the shop or install the engine back in the car and run it on a lift. I learned the hard way that when running a car on a lift sometimes the suspension has to be loaded. Long story on that. So maybe the best would be a chassis dyno.

What do I suspect? Well, anything that can potentially move when a stress is applied. Let's just say for grins that the trans or suspension opens a crack in the block where there is an oil passage.

Only thinking with a keyboard, nothing else.

And/or something that only happens under a load. Possibly the load causes forces to act on something like the rear main seal that might not occur otherwise.

There's a big difference between running on a bench and running under load. Many years ago, I had a problem with an old Chevy 350. I ended up in a parking lot. It would idle all day and rev in neutral. As soon as I tried to drive it, it would stall or try. I had to call dad. He futzed with it for a bit, until ultimately we swapped in a new fuel filter and the car ran fine.

Another buddy with a fairly hot Chevelle would frequently lose his brakes when he went around a left turn. Ultimately turned out that the positive from the battery to the starter would touch a brake line on a left turn. For a long time, no big deal, but once he wore through the insulation it would short, heat his brake line, boil the fluid and kill the brakes.

Good luck and keep us updated! Thanks for checking in!

Exactly

Good call, but wow, that seemed like a LOT of oil!

Other questions have been asked.

I assume the oil level was different after that much leaking?

With the engine out, was there a wet spot/trail to follow to the source of the leak?

I have watched many race cars that will only smoke on right or left hand corner and find it was a valve cover seal or something likewise that leaked when loaded up in a corner.

That is a very good observation. I'll add that acceleration and braking might push oil up and out of someplace that doesn't usually see oil. Your example of oil not being able to drain back to the pan because forces are keeping it in the valve cover is a great analogy.

Also not too good for the motor as the sump might at times not have oil at the pick up. There is good reason for dry sump engines.

That looks like my old 911 2.7 drippage.

The seal opening was oval and it leaked only when I drove it. Not sitting idling...

I doubt you have the same ovality issue, but I would look at the seal as the source of the problem.