How things change
 

Pre-bubble I spent a lot of time on Classifieds here, having cut-up 13 cars, selling all kinds of parts and even surgically cut the rear seat pans and parcel shelf as one piece out of a 72 that Restoration Design used as their template.

Ton of people were always on Classifieds.

Double for Technical.

Just did my normal round of going to Classifieds, then Tech, then here.

There are more members here on OT than on the "real" forums.

That's a little sad.

I just went on to the tech forum (526 people) and the 911 parts for sale forum (100). I haven't been there for ages, probably like a lot of people. Could be the older cars aren't that numerous or those who have them don't work on them that much anymore. Yes everything changes.

When I first found PPOT, prolly 2005 or so, it was WAY WAY WAY busier than now. And more fun, frankly. Remember Leland Pate? Nostatic? BRAINIAC?

Marv, 90% of the 526 are web spiders or whatever they are called, not real people.

Here is Technical now at 7:45 am. There used to be more people on there at 3 am back in the day.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1726314370.jpg

Good times those were. I have to wonder how the bubble has effected forum participation.

That's interesting. Why do you think that is? Are owners aging out, old Porsches are too expensive, or younger buyers aren't enthusiasts?

Facebook is king for technical issues with niche cars now.

^^^This. FB groups are pretty amazing.

On a related note, I sold my 80 SC to a guy who I thought was sort of a dumbazz but was enthusiastic a few years back. Got a call recently from someone else asking me pointed maintenance questions. Car had been sold / flipped. The air cooled cars are very much out of the hands of enthusiasts and into the hands of collectors / speculators. This is sad.

I find most Facebook groups lacking when compared to a traditional forum like this one. Personally I don't get the appeal of Facebook groups versus a traditional forum. I'm not a Senior Citizen either.

Those were extraordinarily good times. When I first found PPOT it was a magical place. The Internet was maturing and taking shape with, it seemed to me, great promise to bring people together but that promised was not panning out. Except here. This was a delightful community. A sort of E-utopia. Great place for information but the real difference was the tone. The very collegial and delightful, fun atmosphere and sense of community.

I dunno but I think that is a very interesting question. I hope to see some analyses here, as I still regard the brain trust here to be quite valuable.

It is widely known that I believe PARF has hurt this community and continues to do so. It is an infection.

The in (younger?) crowd is on Facebook Groups.

Paying $20,000 for a clapped out roller and then throwing another $30,000 + at it to get a result worth $45,000 isn’t much fun.

I hate FB groups. People on them are either hawking products of dubious value, or presenting themselves as experts while knowing next to nothing.

I tried Reddit too. The average age there is 23, and anything the least bit unsupportive is frowned upon.
"My boyfriend (23m) calls me (20f) names and threatens me. What should I do?"
"Get a new boyfriend"

AI Moderator: Your comment has been removed for being unsympathetic

Bingo. Sad, but it is what it is.

Censorship… Crazy thing huh.

It's almost as bad as belittling people who don't agree with you.

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When I first got my car I was on the technical, engine rebuilding, and parts classified forums all the time. After two engine builds and sorting out all the other issues I hang out here. Last year I bought a Ferrari 308 project car. The participation rate on the Ferrari chat forums is even lower.

Why has particiaption dropped in the Tech forum?

When I joined Pelican in 2003, you could actually work on a 911. Basic tools, good manuals amd books (anyone remember "101 Projects For Your Porsche 911"? Modern cars are setup so that there isn't much you can do. Owners are "checkbook mechanics".

In the meantime, air cooled cars have soared in price and parts are all made of unobtanium (if you can still get them). I have learned most everything that I would be able to handle and there just aren't that many new air cooled owners that have the time or the money to DIY.

I appreciate your clear illustration of my point. PP knows I recommend eliminating PARF, and the nasty BS like this that would be swept out with it.

My guess is that without PARF, overall traffic on this site would be cut in half.

And then would triple.

The vast majority of times that PARF topics end up in OT are when OT regulars make posts, typically derogatory, that are political in nature, and/or they take cheap shots at PARF regulars or PARF-typical subjects, such as yours above, and somehow do not expect retorts to come back at them (often feigning innocence or cluelessness); that is the extent of the "infection" in OT or anywhere else on this website.

Speaking of which, you post semi-regularly there, often at length and with statements that are pretty combative and bombastic in nature, plus you like to make critical posts about PARF in OT threads, so does that make you part of the "infection"?

PARF regulars would be lucky to number 15, and more often than not, there are well under 20 members even viewing that subforum, much less posting in it, therefor I do not understand your math.

I've been around for a long time ... often just tossing out posts or starting threads without giving them a second thought ... or even a 2nd sip of coffee...

I don't even "know" some have religious implications until they disappear....

I'm such a heathen ;)....

I've dabbled in religious discussions both here (back when dual threads ran in both forums) and there.... it was different then.... and things do change :)

....and the band played on :(

PARF needs to stay. Without it those posts would invariably appear on PPOT, and that wouldn't be good for Pelican.

Some random thoughts.
Forums everywhere are aging out. I participate in a number of cycling related forums and the avg age is now in the 60's and 70's. Moderated discourse is something that social media has sorta killed. The format is viewed like email-something "older" people use.

Everyone knows the 911 demographic has changed. The bubble is largely responsible for that. The modifications that happen today tend to be by restomod pro's, not guys hot rodding cars. In fact, just hot rodding a 911 has become prohibitive for 2 reasons- now, you're messing with an "original" car that has real value vs an affordable (sorta) old sports car, and secondly the parts prices are insane (see the bat engine thread).

If you combine 1 & 2 you end up with a situation with fewer folks to start with, and those that are left are not enthusiastic wrenches for cost and age reasons.

Shaun, no one in the Porsche world is doing what you did - now, people think completely rusted hulks are worth 10k etc.

Finally, PARF. I think you have to have very thick skin to participate there. The regulars seem ok with it, but it is kind of an echo chamber, not a place where ideas get discussed. Its a shouting match. Unfortunately, that seems to be the norm for social and political debate these days. I stopped going over because of it generating negative feelings about folks here that seem pretty ok (for the most part) when not debating these issues. I hang on other forums where political discussion of any kind is banned, and it does make for easier coexistence but I don't know that it adds participation. I do think its wise not to even look at PARF here unless you have a strong stomach.

I got here through participation in the R1100S BBS. It too was a source of technical expertise for the MC side for years. I wandered over here quite accidentally while cruising the tabs on the site. The MC page is nothing like it used to be.

PARF is a waste...why does Pelican feel it needs an outlet for that crap? Is it so moderators don't have to moderate? I have blocked most who participate there as I have no respect for the tone or the message. We should all be able to participate here like adults and be civil/respectful...but...

It seems that all the forums I belong too are on a downward sliding trend. I guess this method of community sharing is not for the future. The world changes, so be it.

Edit: Not sure why you felt the need to include possibly the most genuine, guileless, people on the planet in a derogatory manner as, well, never mind..

IMO, a very well reasoned post. I'm curious if you think there's any up-and-coming enthusiast marques?

Yes, unfortunately.
I know it's just perception, but I feel safer on the PP tech sites than on Facebook sites. The PP denizens feel like a community, while the FB people are only out to do what's best for Zucherberg. I'm active on the Innova quilting machine site on FB, and its helpful at times, but cold and impersonal. Pluse, even the ones who are technically savvy can't put together a cohesive sentence.

I'm in the wrong demo to ask-the local cars and coffee seems to have a bunch of younger folks interested in WRX's, Skylines, hot hatches like Focus RS etc. Not sure that any of these have the staying power of something like a 911, which is a unique beast in that it was built in similar form for so long. Miatas come to mind. But I don't really know.

The thing that made the 911 special was its blank canvas nature. The car itself was superb, but you could draw across the multiple generations and build something - long hoods w/ modern powerplants, short hoods converted to be long hoods with creature comforts, track cars, a/x cars, concours queens, 3.2 s and 3.6s in lightweight cars and on and on. Not sure that there's anything like it in the automotive world past or present -the hot rod movement came close but drew a different sort. I think it was this broad spectrum of creativity that made this place so interesting as it drew a real mix of people, some of whom were insanely talented and most of whom were at least sharp and downright interesting. The folks that remain here in OT are the core of that crowd.

Nope. "PARF topics" are rarely OT threads. They would get moved quickly. The vast majority of times OT threads get blown up are when folks who live on PARF run out of criticisms to level or people to insult, get bored, then come here with the nasty attitude that pervades PARF. Social media can be a powerful addiction. It OT they forget where they are and make posts that are culturally okay in PARF and very out of place here. OT regular making cheap shots at PARF regulars? You think insults from OT people is the problem, not insults from the PARF gang? That strikes me as curious.

IN fact they do end up here, as I mentioned above.

Nearly all the forums I visit are hobby-type or technical or topical websites. They rarely if ever tolerate politics, religion or personal insults AT ALL and everyone behaves because those moderators are intolerant of such things and not taking prisoners. But......

Those hobby websites are not commercial businesses. They don't sell anything. Pelican is a vendor and bans of members have consequences. I understand why PP does not ditch PARF, unfortunately. I think its creation was a mistake. I have immense respect for Wayne on many levels, but I think PARF should never have been created in the first place.

Back to the topic of this thread: In Wayne's defense, PPOT was a wonderful community Very positive. Very supportive and collegiate. Very mature. It probably looked to Wayne as though this community could have respectful discussions of important public policy topics. There are occasional mature, thoughtful posts in PARF but mostly it's just an angry echo chamber and insult fest.

Thinking back to how the tech board was back in the early 2000s certainly makes me nostalgic if not sad. My entry into the 911 world was when I bought a 1972 911E for $5800. Remember those days? I knew virtually nothing about these cars. Other than thinking they looked really cool when I would see one drive by. My entry onto the tech board was with several stupid questions that were answered by Early_S_Man. he was a 911 guru! Back in those days they were even guys that worked on their 911s in their driveway. They were easy cars to work on and parts were not prohibitively expensive. Between the guys on the tech board and the purchase of the engine rebuilding book by the originator of this board, I was able to rebuild the engine in my 1986 911. Then 911 prices started to skyrocket, and the fun seemed to go out of owning one. Sold my 911 for twice what I paid for it, owned a couple of Boxster‘s, and then moved on to other things. Every now and then I pop in on the tech board, but like some others have said, it’s just not the same.

Just don't click Supe..


Rika

Good advice.

Going down a rabbit hole right now, chasing down some old threads and stalking Leland Pate, one of my all-time favorites. Here is a thread whining about argumentativeness in 2007, when this Forum was still VERY active and VERY close-knit:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/245765-forum-out-control.html

Perhaps Wayne had to do what he had to do. Just goes to show....walk a mile.

.

What sticks with me about PARF..
t'was the only place one could go against the grain..
anyone recall COVID..
all but a handful of us said NO thanks....
while the rest of OT wanted to send us too camps for education..

Rika