Replacing furnace
 

Well, this has turned into quite the mental gymnastics. I live in the northeast (near Buffalo, NY) My current oil furnace and air conditioner are 22 years old. Since oil furnaces are going the way of the dinosaur, and are being phased out completely, I started looking at my choices.

1. High Efficiency LP furnace and central air conditioner.

2. Stand alone Air source heat pump.

3. Hybrid system which, as the name suggests, is a heat pump with a propane furnace for backup heating when the temperature is @30 degrees Fahrenheit and below.

The first choice is the least expensive option and would save money as fuel oil is way more expensive than propane. It is also the simpler solution that would heat my home in an identical manner to my oil furnace. I.E. the furnace would only run when heat is needed, and likewise for the air conditioner.

The second choice is marginally more expensive than the first and uses the existing ducting. It seems simple enough, but then you get into all the SEER, HSFP, correct tonnage, etc. it gets a bit confusing. Pro’s are: simple design, uses existing ductwork, is both the heating and air conditioning, uses electric only. Con’s: electric is very expensive here, would be running 24/7/365, a cold weather rated unit uses a resistive heating sub element to help it function if outside temperature is below 30degrees, this sub element uses major electricity (i.e. lose all efficiency)…and they all warn that it is a “different” kind of heat. Not sure what that means. Plus it still might not be able to effectively heat the home.

The third choice (hybrid) is the most expensive and to me seems to be a band aid for a system that they know doesn’t effectively heat a home in cold climates. This system uses a propane furnace to make up for the cold weather shortcomings of the standalone heat pump (option 2). When it gets to 30 degrees and below outside, the LP furnace comes on the help heat the home. So, this option has 2 systems running at the same time throughout the entire heating season (4-5 months long). Plus it still has to run the resistive heat sub element to keep the outside unit from freezing. So during the heating season,
I would be using LP, and about two times the electricity that I use now. I base this on the energy required for the heat pump. Then add in all the energy for the resistive sub element, and the energy for the LP furnace….and the LP itself.

So to round out this long winded tome, I would love to hear about my fellow Pelicans thoughts and experiences with this issue.

Thanks !

P.S. if I go with the first choice, I can afford a home standby generator. For all the expense of electricity here, we have poor infrastructure which causes numerous outages. Yea haw

With 24 years in the HVAC industry, I will give my short and simple answer.

Heat pumps are for Arizona. If you don’t have access to natural gas, propane is going to be the most cost effective way to heat your home. Electrification is great, but you can’t get the heat you need out of it in your climate. The “toaster” grid heater for back up is a joke!


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A bit different situation w/ similar climate, just North of Albany

I replaced my HVAC last year w/ a hybrid, natural gas/heat pump


from the factory the heat pump was set to operate down at least into the low teens, the lower the temp the less efficient the heat pump, The cost of gas vs the cost of electricity means that I changed the switch point to ~50F, below that I use gas, above that heat pump.

this seems to work very well, as the winter heating bills and summer A/C bills are way down from those w/ the old system

I did go w/ the most efficient system I could find.

A very pleasant side benefit is the relative silence in either mode, I can barely hear the system at any time.

DerkPerk, Thanks for that response ! It pretty much confirms my thoughts and research !

I disagree. I'm currently installing a Bryant Evolution Extreme in my home. This HP paired to a fully modulating Bryant Evolution gas furnace and Evolution system control will operate efficiently below what was once considered the normal. I plan to operate my heat pump down to 15 degrees. My only concern is on those wind driven cold days. If a home has a well sealed envelope, I see no reason not to go with a heat pump.
If he goes variable speed heat pump with a variable speed fan unit and electric resistance, the control will stage in heat as needed to supplement the heat pump as temperatures drop. The Evolution Extreme can operate down to below zero and heat at or near zero. Today's heat pumps aren't the heat pumps of old.

Matt,
Word of warning! The system I describe in my reply to DerkPerk is not cheap. The equipment alone would cost a consumer something north of 15K. I personally prefer a fully modulating furnace because it's capable of load matching. That means if the home only needs 20,000 btu, the furnace operates at 20,000 btu. It's definitely not the cheapest option. My next choice would be a 2 stage furnace. Reason being if the home doesn't require full output, it'll operate at low fire to satisfy the call for heat. I don't have any real issue with a single stage furnace, I just like the energy savings that come from load matching.

Most complaints related to a heat pump boil down to the vent temps. If a chair is placed near a register, a person might feel a cool breeze.

I would make sure that whatever I buy qualifies for the energy efficiency tax credit. If considering a heat pump, I'd check with my electric provider about rebates. Mine offers a rebate for upgrading my heat pump and a $100 rebate for a smart thermostat if the stat is energy star certified. Only damn thing not Energy Star certified on my system is the $500 system control.

I've got a 2-stage Trane which has a pretty good reputation. Only on the cold days does it every kick into high. Combined gas/electric bills are almost always under $200max despite cracking a window. There is a foot of spray foam insulation in the attic which serves as a nice reflective lid. Would love a heat pump run off solar and battery suppliment.

word of warning: An oversized 1-stage furnace will get expensive quickly. A previous home with plenty of leaky windows was running $500-600 in gas bills.

The old style of Japanese houses doesn't have central heating and paper mache windows. They mostly use small space heaters which can be a fire hazard. Might think about supplementing common rooms(bed/office/den) with additional electric heat, adding insulation even, and lowering the entire house temp.

To me, LP is the only heat option for Buffalo if you do not have natural gas.

What's the house layout? Is a mini-split an option for AC?

Regarding heat pumps, you can eliminate the low air temperature problem by using a ground source system.

Best
Les

Right! but now you're talking Geothermal which ratchets up the price even more. He can overcome the lower outlet temps by just staging in one bank of resistance heat if he goes electric backup.

Just wanted to update in case you're still on the fence, I finished installing my variable speed heat pump and modulating furnace yesterday. Combined with the Connex control, I gotta say I'm impressed with the A/C. I think if you're gonna go gas furnace and A/C I'd recommend a variable speed air conditioner. The dehumidification is impressive and the noise level is almost non existent when operating on it's lowest speed. Even ramped up for checking the charge, the outdoor unit couldn't be heard from about 20 feet away. I typically kept my house at 72 with the old system. At 72 with 50% humidity, controlled by the system control, it feels cold in the house at 72 now. I won't know, or at least I hope I won't, how the heat pump works for a little while yet.

One thing to keep in mind as well, they've stopped production on 410a systems and are moving to the new A2L refrigerants R32 or R454b. As I understand it, the A2L systems will be more expensive than the 410a systems. I've been told they'll also be a little smaller than the 410a systems. I chose 410a because I'm class 1&2 certified and since I don't do HVAC anymore, I didn't want a system I couldn't buy refrigerant for without having to get a new certification.

Replacing furnace
 

That’s great point, Cabman. 410a is gone! Many of our reps are telling us that unless equipment is ordered by mid month, they cannot guarantee it will be a 410a unit. The A2L units are going to be noticeably more expensive as well. Being A2L refrigerants are considered flammable, all systems will require integrated leak detection. The refrigerant itself is more too, by about double. Luckily the procedure for installation and service is similar enough, technicians won’t be messing it up too bad like when 410a came out.


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I went with a variable speed high efficiency propane furnace and A/C unit (also variable speed and high efficiency). My existing 500 gallon propane tank turned out to be full ! The propane company price for propane is 1/3 rd of the cost of fuel oil. So, theoretically I should be saving on both electricity and fuel.
Now, to concentrate on a whole house generator!

I think you'll really like that system. Does it come with a smart thermostat? If you didn't get one or don't have one already, you might consider a bypass type humidifier. If you have a smart thermostat, it will control the humidifier during the winter months.

I'm like a kid with a new toy with my system installed. I'm gonna burn up the touch screen on the thermostat! Darn thing has tracking for energy use. I enter my propane and electric cost and it tracks how much it costs to operate daily. Yesterday my AC used .33c worth of electricity on a day with high temps around 80. Gonna be fun, or maybe not, seeing what the propane daily cost is with the modulating furnace.

I own my tanks (2 1000 gallon tanks) my cost to fill is $1.39/gal. Nice thing about owning the tank and having the capacity I do, I only fill once each year at the summer fill rate. If the company owns the tank, I'd ask if they do will call fills rather than auto fill. With auto, they use degree days and estimated use to determine when to fill. This can mean they're filling your tank with much higher priced propane. The only downfall to Will Call is if you forget to check your tank. With 2000 (1600 filled at 80%) gallons I don't have to worry about it. Why 2000? I have three furnaces that I'll run (shop, man cave in the barn, and house)

I was all cranked up and ready to buy a R454b system until I found out 1) that my distributor didn't have any of the new systems in yet and 2)cost was going to be significantly higher. Then I thought, yeah I like 410a, I can live with 410a.

System does come with a SMART thermostat !

I posted an update to the wrong thread. I've been really impressed with this new heat pump. Yesterday the low was 16 and the high 28. The thermostat shows I used $4.07 of electricity and $2.80 of propane. House is set to 70 and the heat pump is doing the bulk of the work. It'll be interesting to see how much propane I have left come next September when I refill. I want to go 12 months since I have records of how much propane I've used in years past. Also be interesting to look at electric bills for the entire year versus years past.

Four years ago we replaced our aging HVAC with a dual fuel LP 2 speed 18 SEER heat pump/AC . We have a 500 gallon tank that we fill at summer rates . It's been consistent that come fill up time we have 30 % to 40 % left in the tank . So very efficient . Keep in mind this is in the Georgia mountains so not extremely cold but cold enough .

Last year we added a Kohler 20k whole house generator that is also LP . To have some safety margin I added a 250 gallon tank . Both tanks are teed together and I can switch between tanks . Basically we use the 500 as the primary and the 250 as emergency back up . So far so good .

We keep the heat at 72 and the AC at 74 . This has proven to be comfortable and efficient settings for us . House is ranch style at 1650 s.f. with basement . If I was designing a house to be built I would design it to use a mini split system . I have one in my man cave garage and it is excellent for both heating and cooling .

$3.07 in propane over the last 18 days, and almost a dollar in electric. I am pleased.

Wow! Over the last 30 I've used $37 in electric and $7 in propane. I'm keeping my house at 70 and not using any setback. I used almost as much propane in one day as you have the last 18. Your place must be well sealed.

Our Bed Jet comes on at 8 PM and our thermostat sets back to 65 at 7. We keep the house colder at night and sleep better since we got the bed heater. I haven’t looked at our records, but I think the Bed Jet paid for itself the first year. We heat with nat gas in variable speed furnaces.