I have the utmost respect for your knowledge and experience in firearms Jeff, but pistol optics are a great tool for field use as well as range guns. The durability (drop test), ability to retain a zero, and battery life is incredible. At my previous Department, I was the Unit Commander for the Weapons Training Unit and was not initially sold on them. We did extensive testing on them and abused them in every way imaginable to test their longevity. When installed correctly and maintained, they are extremely helpful.

Aside from the increased accuracy, with extensive training and practice, my focus was to better equip field personnel. Utilizing iron sights on a pistol, the shooter must focus on the front sight post for accuracy. That means the subject is blurred and focus cannot be placed on the subject's hands, which is the most dangerous part of a subject because he/she may be holding a dangerous weapon or firearm. With a pistol mounted optic, the shooter can place the dot on the subject in the torso area and focus on the subject's hands and what may or may not be in them. In fact, we saw a reduction in officer-involved shootings in which the subject who was shot while unarmed. In addition, the officer's hit ratio was increased thereby reducing danger to the public at large due to missed shots. It's not perfect, but it definitely increased the accuracy.

There was also a secondary benefit that we did not consider at the time of testing. Many of the younger generation have been playing first person shooting video games such as "Call of Duty." Many of the handguns in the game have pistol mounted optics and the new hires have been "virtually shooting" these pistols for many years. When it comes time to teach them firearm-related subjects, they readily understood the practices.

Again, I am not challenging Jeff's expertise, but this was our experience with the pistol mounted optics.

Respectfully, David

My best friend has a little laser/flashlight thing on his Glock that is pretty nifty for home defense


Higgins is old AF, a blessing and a curse. You are comfortable with what you know and will be better using a tool you are comfortable with. I know guys that hate the plastic guns and some call a 1911 a dinosaur

I respond with something about what pistol do you want if you are needing to shoot a dinosaur

Thanks for posting, David. I also am inclined to trust Jeff's opinion as he's got far, far more experience than I do, but I also trust your opinion (I guess, technically not opinion). You've got a lot of good info in your post!

Any particular make/models that you found were better than others?

my brother trained with a particular navy team..payback for letting them kick down an abandoned school in town for training.

my brothers work team got to go. they saw stuff they cant talk about, hahah..anyways, once they all got home they all bought a new 9mm..the Staccato or something. (I looked, I'll buy one when I retire and move to the midwest and do the jedi mind trick on my wife). all with some red-dot thing. that thing was a hoot to shoot. I am wonky. I have to shoot one eye pinched closed if I want to be accurate. the red dot was the first time I shot two eyes open. it was intuitive..right or wrong my eyes just focused on the dot easily and I went center mass. I still sucked.

with practice I bet I could at least fake it better.

My bedside gun is a SIG P220 Carry with a rail. The light is an O-Light, I think 900 lumens, with a green laser option while the light is on. It's meant for very quick point and shoot. I have dialed it in at the range after getting pretty close while co-witnessing the laser and night sights on a wall in my house at 25'. But you'll see people at the range all the time with lasers and not hit the target anywhere close to where the laser was pointed. You have to practice that stuff.

I absolutely agree with your take on this, David, and likewise very much respect your opinion. I know our military has seen huge improvements in first hit capability since having equipped the M4 carbine with an optic. And, like you, they use their equipment under some very challenging conditions, which have driven them to test these units to destruction. They are as happy with the results as you are. Your endorsement speaks very highly of them.

Here is where we differ: you guys are professionals. You get to carry your sidearms (for the most part) in your duty holsters, openly visible to the public. We, as civilians, are for the most part restricted to concealed carry. These optics add materially to the size of the firearm, making them very much more difficult to conceal. In addition, they add another thing to get snagged on clothing when attempting to draw.

Beyond that is battery life. We have a difficult enough time remembering to change batteries in our smoke alarms, I would prefer to not add that factor to yet another device that I may someday rely upon to save my life. As professionals, with either armorers employed by your departments or strict protocols and inspections to ensure duty arms have fresh batteries, this should not be a concern for you. But it is for us civilians. We tend to be rather lazy and inattentive on such matters.

So, yeah, I agree - fantastic for duty guns, be it for law enforcement or military. But, well, this is very close to my race car analogy - some features are great for professionals on a race track, but might not be so great for us duffers on the street. Our requirements are just different enough, from how we need to carry to how diligent we are in our maintenance.

Ha, I bet at 64 I'm younger than you, Tobster. SmileWavy

Back in my dinosaur hunting days, this is what I used. Mine was a custom Ruger Bisley with a five shot cylinder, built by John Linebaugh himself. This thing shoots 440-450 grain bullets, so a little heavier than the standard for the .45-70 rifle round, which is 410 grains. I was able to get 1,300 to 1,400 fps out of them, which is right in there with the .45-70 again. By way of comparison, the .44 mag does about 1,350 fps with a 240 grain bullet. I no longer own this gun, I sold it back when I killed the last remaining dinosaur.

https://youtube.com/shorts/w2f0ZUkWVhw?si=d_8eqNXF52hZ2Pw0


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Steve, we have tested most of them. It is a matter of preference and mine is the Holosun brand. I have tried them all, and prefer it because Holosun provides a selection of 3 different red dots (32 MOA, 2 MOA, or both at the same time). As a duty carry, I always used both illuminated at the same time so I could easily pick the optic up, but when I go to the range and am practicing precise shooting, I utilize the 2 MOA only.

The glass size is large enough for me to pick up secondary and subsequent shots, which is a learned skill. The Holosun battery life is a claimed 50,000 hours and many models have a small solar panel on top. They have a "shake awake" feature that shuts down the optic when it sits stationary for a period of time.

Holosun also offers duty size and small size optics for handguns. I have no affiliation with the company.

I was a "non-believer" for a long time as I had fired iron sights for more than 40 years. It took a great deal of practice to draw and pick up the red/green dot consistently and like everything else it is a perishable skill.

For the batteries, we recommend replacing the battery annually on a specific date such as New Years Day, your birthday, etc. to ensure the optic always works. On most optics, the batteries trays are on the side so the zero is not lost when replaced.

It is also very important to use the proper mounting plate, use blue locktite, and torque the bolts to the specific inch pounds. We also used "witness marks" on the bolt heads to ensure they do not loosen and to retorque them annually as well.

I hold Jeff's opinion, knowledge and expertise as high as anyone I've ever met in the firearms industry.

Rock on, David

So what would be general reco for a Glock 19 G4?
Oh I've been iron sights since day one.

I recommend you go to a range a try a few different models. My preference is the
HE508T-RD X2 https://holosun.com/products/reflex-sight/508/he508t-rd-x2.html

Some of my teammates prefer the enclosed model HE509T-GR X2 https://holosun.com/products/reflex-sight/509/he509t-gr-x2.html

They are extremely durable, have fantastic battery life, and are accurate.

Rock on, David

If it has an MOS plate, all those should work. For rails, it takes everything. I wouldn't spent the money getting the slide cut for an MOS plate. You can probably just buy such a slide on eBay. The fussy ones are HKs. Their rails are proprietary and either take something just made for them or need an adapter.

Like these?
https://www.glockstore.com/Glock-MOS-Adapter-Set

https://www.glockstore.com/assets/images/products/Glock-MOS-Adapter-Set_main-1.jpg?resizeid=9&resizeh=1000&resizew=1000

Those are adapter plates for the various optics. They are not universal and some are proprietary. What he is referring to is that the pistol slide requires a cutout that seats the optic so it can be bolted to it. Most manufacturers now offer pistols with the cut.

Some people opt to have a machine shop cut the slide. This works, but it is an added expense. The Glock with a slide cut is referred to as a "MOS" cut.

Glocks and ARs are like Lincoln Logs and Legos for adults. There's no end to the customization options and just no reason to spend a lot of money having a pro gunsmith work on a Glock. You can always find one that's already been done and you can find every single part made by someone else that drops right in. And most of those parts you can order on Amazon or eBay and have shipped right to your house.

BTW, if anyone wants iron sights installed on a SIG or a Glock, I'll do it no charge if you mail me the slide and sights. I have all the tools and have done it on a lot of them. Once I get my FFL (soon), I'll be able to receive frames and complete guns for minor wrenching.

And if you have a spoon store close by, try out a red dot and a green dot.
For some reason, the green dot works better with my eyes.

This is an issue in AZ, where it's always sunny and there no shade anywhere ever.

You are a good man Rick and I respect your opinion, knowledge and expertise as well brother.

Rock on sir, David

Many years ago I got a couple Bushnells TRS25's. I am sure technology has improved but they are great. I think the red dot is 2, maybe 3 MOA and they work so well and are less than 100 bucks.
The battery I think is the CR2032 and the same battery is still in them after at least 6 years.
Probably not Milspec., but if you are shooting out to 15 yards, the TRS is good.