Tesla values
 

........ values dropping like a rock
almost giving them away.
a used Chevy Bolt is now more expensive -in Vancouver.

what happened?
non-PARF responses only, svp.

Because suddenly the people who have always bought them no longer want them and are off-loading them? Just spit-balling here.

kid down the street referred to them as Hesslas.
........ whatever that means.

More competitors in the space, they lowered msrp, low gas prices, general cooling of public sentiment for EV........

Can get a few year old model S plaid with good range and a sub 10 second 1/4 mile for less than 50k these days. Not for me but a hell of a performance bargain if you live your life 1/4 at a time, and a pretty nice car as well.

Among "status" EVs, Rivian is now the flavor of the month. Every mid-level manager or bank VP has a Tesla. Outside of the Cyber Truck, the brand has lost the cache upon which it formerly traded.

Is it just me or has the design not changed over the years?

Teslas have always been attractive because of the charging network and the hype around Musk. Musk is now aggravating the typical EV buyer, and other OEMs are gaining access to the network.

Repair costs. Replacement parts are ridiculously expensive, and Tesla, like John Deere, has a "no right to repair" policy. If it needs to be fixed, Tesla makes it so no one but a Tesla tech can do it. Basically, you pay for the car, but you really only have a license to use it as proscribed by Tesla.

Reminds me--someone was doing a repair on a "totaled" Tesla, basically stripping the controls and rebuilding them (or something, I don't recall the details), at one point he called Tesla to order wheel stud lugs. They asked what for what purposes he needed them and needed an answer before continuing with a sale. Now that's customer service!

^^
I can't find the radio show. I think it was Terri Gross's Fresh Air, that interviewed that guy. He is an auto repair podcaster. It was hilarious!!

Not to sidetrack but she is possibly the best interviewer on the planet and almost no one says no to her because of it. People who never do interviews in general go on her show. She even got Doris Day, over the phone. Just brilliant.++

Carry on. :)

The real answer is parfy. My brother in laws wife has been pushing him to get rid of his (despite the loss) due to politics.

The market for Teslas have been in the tank for at least a year, it’s not politics. It’s also not just Teslas, both new and used EV sales have tanked. Resale values have crashed, manufacturers are cancelling or delaying planned new models, and there are big incentives to be had for EVs sitting on the lot. I don’t recall the exact numbers but the majority of first time EV buyers are going back to ICE or hybrids and demand looks to have plateaued. Tesla is a lightning rod for a number of reasons, but it’s not just a Tesla issue.

Competition from nearly every manufacturer has impacted Tesla sales. No major models revisions that I know of has also put pressure on Tesla.

Overall, the US ev market continues to grow, though at a slower pace.

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q4-2024-ev-sales/#:~:text=In%202024%2C%20full%2Dyear%20EV,federal%2 0and%20state%20incentive%20programs.

Electric Vehicle Sales Jump Higher in Q4, Pushing U.S. Sales to a Record 1.3 Million

Overall, EV sales in the U.S. continue to grow, with more than 2.5 million EVs sold in the past 48 months. In the latest analysis, sales in 2023 were revised upward to 1,212,758 units, a 49% gain from 2022. Sales in 2024 (1,301,411) were higher by 7.3% and accounted for 8.1% of total sales, up from 7.8% share in 2023. While the rate of growth has slowed, volume continues to expand. In the second half of 2024, more than 700,000 EVs were sold, accounting for 8.7% of total new-vehicle sales.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1738273337.jpg

Sales of EVs grew 49% in 2023 but 7.3% in 2024. There are multiple surveys out there from the last two years, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of current EV buyers said they would buy an EV for their next car. Oddly enough for this thread, 67% of current Tesla owners said they would buy another EV, much higher than the average for other EV owners.

They push those electric cars pretty hard.

Mostly, people are not interested in electric cars.

EV sales are skyrocketing world-wide.
it's an indisputable fact.

production doesn't necessarily mean sales. however - sales are never higher than production.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1738277615.png

Unfortunately in some markets it’s via government mandates as opposed to the free market. I’m all for people having choices and see no issues with EVs as a viable option for transportation. Where I have an issue is when the government or my tax dollars starts to force a particular option as opposed to leaving the choice to me.

Also worth noting, the small geographic size of many other nations tend to make them better suited to EVs, particularly as an only car. Similar to why EVs are actually not a bad choice for an urban commuter. The vast expanses of rural America, not so much.

Everyone who wanted an EV mostly has one. Rivian is begging me to follow through with an order but until the range nears 500 miles I'm not willing to pull the trigger. Factor in concern over battery replacement costs as cars get near the 10 year old mark and it's not surprising. Good to see manufacturers pivot back to ICE and hybrid. Pure EV's aren't a solution for most Americans who only own a single car.

If there was a diesel option I would be interested.

indisputable facts being disputed.
OWP has a point. - not certain how much of an influence the credits have. ....... won't delve into the government subsidization of oil companies.

Its not like non EVs are driven by free market customer choice......


Literally everything about modern non EVs is dictated by US and worldwide regulations

Batteries aren't cheap. Peeps that have them might as well upgrade to new before the credits disappear.

I did a 24 hour test drive with an X back in 2017, put money down on a Model S before they came out (and then I bailed). In the last 2 weeks, I've been traveling and used uber a lot. I also tried to buy a Hummer EV the morning they were announced but was too late by 7:00AM MST.

I've ridden in quite a few Teslas but also a BYD, a Kia electric, a Bolt (volt?), a Hyundai electric, Toyota hybrid. I also have a Tundra hybrid for my daily driver.

The BYD was the 'nicest' car of the bunch to ride in and looked great. Tesla has the best traffic detection(?) screen. Its impressive.

Electric car demand is still strong in some places but these places have government based incentives or legislation forcing the issue. Electric cars make sense for some people but not everyone. Personally, I think hybrids make the most sense and have no regrets in buying one... yet.

Teslas and other electrics are still pretty cool but wont fit my rural lifestyle currently.

I’m honestly not an EV hater I just think consumers should have the choice without government intervention. If I lived in a major urban area and commuted daily I would probably consider one. A Tesla Model S P85D is still the most violently accelerating car I have ever driven.

What's the state of lithium battery recycling? I read there are a handful of businesses doing it, or attempting it, but don't know whether it's cost effective versus mining.

There’s a hand full of companies that shred the batteries in the US and send off the material (REE) to ccp owned refineries in third world **** holes. These factories then use conflict minerals that are mixed with some recycled material. Then it’s sold as clean conflict free material.

US does not have the capabilities

I bought a Tesla Model S Plaid for $100k off, and it's faster than my Bugatti Veyron???

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/XTtLttUSrDk?si=v_Axjpczm7XvIira" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>

RE: EV "subsidization".
In 2023, the Government of Canada provided at least $18.553 billion in financial
support to fossil fuel and petrochemical companies.

there are many recycling depots (for EV batteries) in Canada. a company in Trail BC collects batteries from across North America.

That's what I saw. A youtube titled as "recycling" showed the black muck from the shredding process. I was wondering well, now what? It didn't say. I guess the new owners could get a bumper sticker that says "we bought it before we knew it wasn't conflict-free". "Conflict" = cobalt?

Is there such a thing as “ethically sourced” rare earth metals? Aren’t they all from some variety of slave or child labor?

Re-use is bigger and more efficient than recycling so far, though there are several recycling businesses in North America.
A lot of used car batteries are being used in stationary applications.
When a battery gets too inefficient for a car it is still a good battery, it just not efficient enough for the demands of a car (weighs too much for the amount of energy it can store). It works fine if it's sitting still, storing energy for a stationary application. I think a car battery is declared "dead" when it's storage capacity drops to something like 80% of its new capacity.

Yes. Slave labor.
Mining done by hand with pick axes and shovels. No machinery.

Cobalt is the big one, but it’s others. Lithium is relatively easy to source.

Here is a download for you. No, I'm not in the mining business, but I invest from time to time in the companies.

Currently most rare earth ore is mined in China, Australia, US, India, Malaysia, various other countries, and - this is the important part - all shipped to China for processing to refined rare earth materials. China totally dominates the processing of rare earth ore and thus the supply of refined rare earth material - like >95% share. China also mines the majority of rare earth ore, but that is mostly because it has the processing facilities, not because it has the majority of rare earth deposits. Rare earth deposits are all over the world, they aren't particularly "rare" in that sense.

Chinese rare earth mining and processing doesn't use slave/child labor (at least, its not thought to be a big part of the operations, though there could be a sprinkling of it), but it is environmentally very damaging - which is part of how China dominated the market, the government was willing to heavily pollute its own land and water and other countries were happy to let it do so.

Some Australian and US companies are building rare earth processing facilities. Lynas has these facilities in Malaysia and Australia, and MP Materials has these in California. They are doing the processing in a way that isn't as polluting as what the Chinese are doing, and some new processing methods are being developed that are even less environmentally damaging, those will probably be used by the Australian and US companies.

So the West is making pretty good progress at reducing its dependence on China for processed rare earths, and governments have supported the companies with all sorts of grants (many from defense department sources, for obvious reasons).

EXCEPT that the West has, as far as I can tell, done nothing to address the other way that China controls the market, which is that periodically China will dump rare earths on the global market, drive the price down, and hold it there until the Western companies go out of business or pull back on expansion projects. It does this about once a decade.

You would think that the West (US, Japan, Europe, etc) would have placed import controls or targeted tariffs or anti-dumping penalties on Chinese rare earth producers, to prevent China from doing this. However, it hasn't - in the US, neither party has ever taken any effective steps, and that includes Trump and Biden. Why - I don't know, but I'd guess the companies that use rare earth materials have whined about raising their costs, and those are a lot bigger and louder companies than the very small companies trying to produce rare earths.

Disclosure - I bought some Lynas and some MP a few months ago, betting that trade wars will be good for these stocks. Owned them for a while a few years ago too.

P.S. I see mention of cobalt etc. That is not a "rare earth". Nothing I said above applies to cobalt, or lithium either. I'm talking only about rare earths - neodynium, dysprosium, cerium, praseodymium, etc.

Interesting read thanks. Obviously this is way more than an EV issue, it’s more like an “everything electronic” issue.

That’s a nice white wash way to say it.

They’ve sold massive volume in the last 5-10 years or so.

Something close to 50% of all new car registrations in San Diego county last year were Teslas, for example.

Many people don’t want a car once it nears being out of warranty.

Massive sales means, 3-4 years later, a huge supply of used cars coming on market.