Outsourcing to India

turbo6bar · 07-30-2003, 05:27 AM

On some days, I'm worn out from work. I'm a self-employed real estate investor (fancy title for landlord). After reading an article by TIME Magazine, though, I'm not quite so tired.

Where are the Good Jobs Going?

The article was interesting, but towards the end it hit closer to home. A mechanical engineer is worth an average of $55,600 in the US, but is paid only $5,900 in India. I have an engineering degree. I couldn't possibly compete on a cost-basis.

On one hand, I think outsourcing is terrible, but on the other hand, the most skilled technical talent seems to be from Asia. Too many Americans want to take the easy way out with an MBA and expect to earn a six-figure salary. The workforce is changing a lot, and employers and employees need to adapt quickly. Just my opinion.

The question I have is should I sell my technology-driven mutual funds, or continue to pursue the mighty dollar. What will you do, if anything? I don't think there's an easy answer. Artificial subsidizing of American jobs is a bad idea. There must be a good way to keep everyone happy and healthy.

Jürgen

tabs · 07-30-2003, 10:15 AM

Pursue as many of those Green Backs as U can. Andy Grove CEO and Founder of INTEL says within 20 years the USA will lose it's technology lead to Asia or India...as 40% of the students there take the tough classes in science and math whereas only 5% of the Students in the US take the hard classes.

widebody911 · widebody911's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by tabs
Pursue as many of those Green Backs as U can. Andy Grove CEO and Founder of INTEL says within 20 years the USA will lose it's technology lead to Asia or India...as 40% of the students there take the tough classes in science and math whereas only 5% of the Students in the US take the hard classes.

OTOH, will it matter? If 50% of the kids here took higher math and physics, we'd just have more technically educated people standing in the unemployment line.

I was at the gym last night, and overheard some kids who apparently had just graduated from high school talking about their majors. One of them said "I'm going into finance. I was going to go into computer science, but f*ck that, they're all getting laid off"

Bill Douglas · 07-30-2003, 02:13 PM

Yup, maybe America should bomb Bangalore. I'm sure it's a hot bed of terrorism.

widebody911 · widebody911's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Douglas
Yup, maybe America should bomb Bangalore. I'm sure it's a hot bed of terrorism.

Actually, the best thing for the US economy would be an India/Pakistan war...

BlueSkyJaunte · 07-30-2003, 03:56 PM

Who will buy all the $5000 computers, $10000 plasma TVs, and lease $100,000 cars when all the high-paying jobs have left the US to be staffed by $5000-a-year Asians?

pwd72s · 07-30-2003, 04:02 PM

An article appeared in an Omaha Newspaper, ( I believe the biz paper there, called the daily record) sent to me by a pen pal. India outsourcing? Seems that some of our nation's largest tax accounting firms are contracting out computer work to India...yep, YOUR personal info...social security, investments, etc. being sent to India, processed, then sent back to the accounting/tax prep firm. Pretty good reason to learn how to use turbo tax, isn't it?

350HP930 · 05:48 AM

When I was an IT manager I lost count of how many sales people were beating down my door to propose oursourcing many of our operations to overseas firms.

If the average american wants any chance of owning a car and house and supporting a family then they need to think about why any advanced nation needs some form of protectionist policies governing employment and trade.

If you want to save a few bucks by taking advantage of third world workers and their opressive governments then be prepared for a race to the bottom where living standards and incomes are concerned.

JavaBrewer · JavaBrewer's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by widebody911
OTOH, will it matter? If 50% of the kids here took higher math and physics, we'd just have more technically educated people standing in the unemployment line.

I was at the gym last night, and overheard some kids who apparently had just graduated from high school talking about their majors. One of them said "I'm going into finance. I was going to go into computer science, but f*ck that, they're all getting laid off"

High school graduates really know what they're talking about - scoop of the century!

There's a huge difference between "technically educated" and "technically skilled". Nearly all the skilled people I've worked with in the last 5 years are still employed. Those who's companies folded were quickly snatched up by other companies. I also know some software folks who lost cushy jobs with large contractors who were employed only due to the tech boom and were really under qualified for their position or responsibilities. Of course you also have some PhD types who write great research papers but can't actually develop anything.

Technology and its associated opportunities are not some flash in the pan trend. The reality is there are jobs out there and more are coming. The other reality is that the stereotype of American college students taking easy classes is mostly true. Poke your head into any upper division or graduate level science class and take a quick headcount. I know this is generalizing a bit but my belief is that kids driving to school in expensive new cars with cell phones, laptops, PDAs, and credit cards don't have the same motivation as someone who had to scratch and fight to get what they have. Parents who fund this sort of lifestyle aren't doing their kids any favors.

widebody911 · widebody911's Garage

Originally posted by dmoolenaar
High school graduates really know what they're talking about - scoop of the century!

They're young, but they're not stupid. Every day in the news they see thousands of layoffs from all of the major corporations, and read about the double-digit unemployment rates in the IT field, and decide that's not the place to be. Pretty smart if you ask me.

There's a huge difference between "technically educated" and "technically skilled". Nearly all the skilled people I've worked with in the last 5 years are still employed. Those who's companies folded were quickly snatched up by other companies. I also know some software folks who lost cushy jobs with large contractors who were employed only due to the tech boom and were really under qualified for their position or responsibilities.

This is simply a means of rationalizing outsourcing, and making managers feel better about themselves for it, or explaining it away to the ignorant masses: the myth that it's only the Johnny-come-latelies that are getting laid off.

Wrong.

I personally know people with many years of IT experience and very current skillsets who have been laid off and unable to find work. Peolpe who were doing this stuff before the boom. You're actually worse off with a large technical skillset, because you're now overqualified and 'too expensive' - go on, ask me how I know

And Shiva help you if you're over 40 and looking for a job in the IT field.

Now that we've addressed one of the IT myths, we're still left with all of the other job types that are being outsourced.

"When they outsourced the programmers, I didn't speak up because I wasn't a programmer

When they outsourced the support people, I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a support person

"When they outsourced the accountants, I didn't speak up, because I wasn't an accountant.

When they outsourced the (your position here) there was nobody to speak up for me"

There will be no economic recovery until there are jobs. With 2,000,000+ jobs send to India so far, we're headed in the wrong direction, fast.

But the most important agenda of the GWB junta today is whether or not gay guys can get married.

Outsourcing taken to it's logical conclusion:

BGCarrera32 · 07-31-2003, 11:30 AM

Well, then the natural thing to do would be to sit back and blame GWB for America's (________________) problems. Fill in the blank.

Thom, some of your arguments have valid points but its hard to take seriously when in every single thread you pin it on one guy in the White House. I couldn't stand Clinton and still don't for that matter, but didn't blame the guy for every problem that went on in the States. Your energy crisis, your -38b debt, illegal aliens, gay marriage, outsourcing, your need for an oil cooler, whatever, all started long before GWB ever took office. Give it a rest, eh? If you're that worried about your job, retrain, move, get active politically in a positive way...but continuing to wing it at the president whoever he may be doesn't hold water in my book. The guy isn't the king of the country.

JavaBrewer · JavaBrewer's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by widebody911
They're young, but they're not stupid. Every day in the news they see thousands of layoffs from all of the major corporations, and read about the double-digit unemployment rates in the IT field, and decide that's not the place to be. Pretty smart if you ask me.

In terms of understanding the economy and market trends yes they are stupid Thom. The just don't have enough real world experience to draw from and they tend to believe the first thing they read. I remember being 18 once. Not choosing a career in technology because some doomesday prediction from disgruntled workers or habitual mudslingers is plain stupid. I never said things were rosy and flush like the late 90's but the sky is nowhere near falling either. Go ahead and support the decision to major in social studies - it will only drive technical salaries higher. Not all jobs are candidates for outsourcing. Leading edge technology and development work is much less likely to leave for cheap labor - that's exactly why we need our newest generation of workers to buckle down and get those tough degrees.

widebody911 · widebody911's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by dmoolenaar
In terms of understanding the economy and market trends yes they are stupid Thom. The just don't have enough real world experience to draw from and they tend to believe the first thing they read.

You mean things like:

HP bases new research centre in Singapore - July 31, 2003
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/topstories/story/0,4386,202405,00.html

General Motors Exports Work to India - July 31, 2003
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EH01Df04.html

General Motors, announced that it would set up a $21 million technology center in Bangalore to carry out computer-aided design and engineering research. The Detroit-based auto maker will spend an additional $40 million over the next three years to expand the center in India.

More where that came from @ http://h1b.info/outsourcing/

Another good source for news, if you can cut thru the static, is http://www.****edcompany.com (I wonder if that URL will come thru)

Not all jobs are candidates for outsourcing. Leading edge technology and development work is much less likely to leave for cheap labor -

Sorry, but US companies are moving their R&D to Idia. Intel, HP, Microsoft, AMD, GE - they're all moving their high-end research jobs over. It's not just the code monkeys who are affected, but EE's and ME's now. The only jobs that are truly safe are those that cannot be physically exported, ie cooks, car washers, landscape maintenance. Oh, wait, GWB is working with Vicente Fox to make it easier to "insource" those.

that's exactly why we need our newest generation of workers to buckle down and get those tough degrees.
Like the guy I worked with a couple years ago. He had a masters in aeronuatical engineering, and had been working on his PhD when he was laid off from Aerojet. He was doing PC support because that's all he could get.

The Import Grrl I was dating for a while manages the Starbucks in Gold River (aka Rancho Cordova). Every week she has ex-Intel and ex-Areojet engineers in begging for jobs because they need to put food on the table. These are guys (and girls) with degrees in everything from CS to EE, yet they can't find jobs because everything's been outsourced.

There's a lot of anti-FUD being spread about the state of the economy - someone doesn't want you to know what's going on. Who? Why?

Oh, and BUSH SUCKS

350HP930 · 07-31-2003, 01:29 PM

If computers, aerospace and biotech are all being outsourced to foriegn countrys for the purpose of using cheap labor and avoiding environmental and other regulations what are these leading edge technologies and developments that are less likely to be shipped overseas of which you speak?

Its not like the US has any monopoly on educating people and building laboratories and factories.

I'm amazed how many people here assume there is nothing wrong with having direct competition between US workers and third world workers.

When the only thing that matters to a multinational corporation is the bottom line what is their incentive to use workers that expect a reasonable standard of living?

350HP930 · 07-31-2003, 01:34 PM

And by the way, I am an aerospace engineer, machinist, and computer programmer with over 10 years of work experience living in the Tampa bay area and I have been looking for a new job for months that pays at least $20 an hour with no luck.

Thank god I'm also a good automotive tech since that was the only thing I could get in the past few months to pay the bills until I can find a cleaner job that pays better.

turbo6bar · 07-31-2003, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by widebody911
I was at the gym last night, and overheard some kids who apparently had just graduated from high school talking about their majors. One of them said "I'm going into finance. I was going to go into computer science, but f*ck that, they're all getting laid off"

Sounds like a dumbarse teenager to me. Wait until mortgage rates go back up. There will be a huge wave of unemployed workers centered about the housing field: builders, contractors, venders, bankers, lenders, brokers, etc.

I was the same way at age 18. I 'heard' environmental engineering was hot. Starting salaries were in the $60k range. Wow! Boy, what a crock! The more I learn, the more I learn how stupid I really am.

When tech was all hot and bothered, a lot of guys were carrying home monster cash. Well, tech is bust, and now some grapes are squished. That's what happens when some guys try to fly too fast. It looks like a pendulum to me, and anyone who participates has to realize the risks. I am mainly referring to the tech boom or lack thereof.

What concerns me is how to keep jobs in the US of A? I am grabbing all the dollars I can, just like any other man, but if Joe B is going to keep his job, do I need to sacrifice mutual fund performance? If you want to blame corporate profits for this trend, don't point at the icon. Point at the shareholders. What happens when GE does not meet profit expectations? Shareholders sell. When one company started sending jobs overseas, other companies had to follow suit or risk going under. So, either all companies must act in the best interests of their employees, or the shareholders must hold the companies accountable for poor decisions. I don't think there is an easy solution. Everybody has to take some blame.

jurgen

speeder · speeder's Garage

Hey, just let the free market handle everything! The more free the better, right? Keep the government out of people's lives, the businessmen of the world will solve everything.

The truth of the matter is that Capitalism, (which I am all for, BTW), is more like a professional football game than anything else. Without pretty strict rules, (and the will and means to enforce them), guys will put a lead pipe in their sleeve for the opposing quarterback. The economy turns into a barbarian fest, with greedy, amoral criminals looting the treasury, and shipping all jobs overseas to improve short-term profits. "I'm ruining the country? Who cares? I'll be rich, and then I'll be dead", seems to be the prevailing attitude. Enron, Worldcom, jobs in India, etc....., it's all the same. "There will be no tomorrow".

turbo6bar · 07-31-2003, 07:47 PM

I agree with you speeder, but since when do we legislate morality and ethics? I am all for canning those guys at Worldcom and Enron for breaking the law.

I just hate to see laws instilled to legislate morals. I would prefer to see the masses collectively punish the actions of the companies. If Company A sends jobs overseas to line their pockets, well the consumer shouldn't do business with them. Instead, we shun personal responsibility and call for more laws. Hmm, sounds like we're giving up freedom to reduce our responsibilities.

I have a problem seeing the government trying to save the world, when the citizenry doesn't give a rat's arse about their country. Plus, according to many, the government is just a puppet for the corporations. Would not those 'pretty strict rules' be mere wordplay with little bite. Do you actually think the government would punish its greatest financial contributors? The fact is as long as Joe Schmuck has a job, he could care less if his neighbor just lost his. Yeah, I'm wishing for the ideal world, but what the heck. Nobody reads this anyway, right?

The root of the problem is individuals or groups of individuals who are not being good. If they are not playing by the rules of decency, will more rules help? So, instead of more rules, I vote for a trio of flogging hot mammas clad in tight leather. These mammas shall mercilessly punish CEOs and other ethically-challenged members of society.

j

WOODPIE · 07-31-2003, 08:52 PM

That sounds about right to me, Denis.

I read or listened to someone some weeks ago whose opinion was that capitalism and democracy (or a democratic republic, if you prefer) are not as symbiotic as people have been led to believe. For both to exist in the same environment, a delicate dance must be danced so as one doesn't step on the others feet or get tangled in the fancy trappings of the other partner. In other words, a certain distance needs to be maintained between the two. Also, as in a dance, one partner should more or less lead, but not in a ham-fisted manner; rather with subtle suggestion, and to not totally ignored the others needs and desires to go this way or that on the dance floor.

For as long as I can remember, business has publicly lamented, resisted and circumvented government interference. It is different now. You don't hear GM*****ing and moaning about 5 mph bumpers, you don't hear power companies whining about pollution controls. The laws are passed on these and other concerns for public consumption, and then, over a period of time, they are reversed, weakened, ignored or enforcement becomes both bureaucratic and underfunded.

If I were to continue the example of the dance partners, I would conclude that one has one hand on the other's private parts, the second hand on the other's wallet, and the third hand is wrapped somewhere around the spinal column, controlling eye movement and speech. This is not Fred Astair and Ginger Rogers but rather Edgar Bergan and Charlie McCarthy.

Also, for as long as I can remember, the general reaction to government waste was "Government should be run like a business!". I agree that government should be run in a better and more fiscally responsible way, but business is not a good model simply because government shouldn't be making a profit.
Nor should it be interested in aquisitions and take-overs. I think it would be a good idea for government to do things FOR THE PEOPLE, to echo that obscure and somehow forgotten line.

I'm pretty sure I haven't pointed out anything new....

Ed

BlueSkyJaunte · 07-31-2003, 11:20 PM

Well, it seems that we mostly agree that big biz these days is pretty much evil.

So what the f*ck do we do about it???

Both the Reps and the Dems are bought. Any other party is inconsequential. McCain seems to be the only one who had the right idea AND the mindshare...until he got beat by Dubya in the primary, that is.