Ticket on basis of the car's color!

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Coming back from a PCA event at Watkins Glen yesterday, my daughter was following about 15 minutes behind in our support vehicle, an Audi A4 Avant. Very large, fast, four- and sometimes six-lane divided highway (Route 17). she was doing about 75 amid half a dozen other cars doing exactly the same speed when an opposite-direction State Trooper did a U-turn, came up and pulled in behind her, and after about a minute hit the roofrack lights and pulled her over.

"You were clocked doing 81 in a 55 about 20 minutes ago," he told her. How did he pick her out? Well, our Audi is a very unusual, albeit factory, color--a vivid red-orange they call "Indian Red." I've never seen another one like it, though it's certainly not a one-of-a-kind color. Now, it's true she was clocked doing 81, because her Valentine briefly went off at that time, though she assumed she'd gotten away with it because nobody chased her. Probably the cop was too lazy to find an official-vehicles-only turning spot across the divider and simply radioed, "Hey, anybody sees an orange Audi wagon, pull it over."

There was no way he could have gotten her license-plate number, since this is a huge, wide highway. I just went out on the local undivided four lane and tried to read front-license numbers on opposite direction traffic doing 55 and couldn't get more than one digit. And ours is not a vanity plate that anybody could read once and remember.

Question: Anybody think we have any recourse short of pleading not guilty and a six-hour round trip to the court in Roscoe, New York? Anybody out there who knows NY vehicle code who coudl say that a letter to the court would be enough in such a blatant case of possible mistaken identity. (I admit that is was _not_ a case of mistaken identity--that's not my gripe--it's that if troopers are going to ticket people based on nothing more than a basic description of a stock automobile--no deer on the fender, no slick tires on the roofrack, no bumper stickers or window placards to set it uniquely apart--the opportunity for mistaken identity is present.

Any advice?

Stephan

[Dantilla]

There used to be an old building at one end of the Narrows Bridge that was used by the county as a traffic court two days a week.

On those two days, at least 50% of the cars parked there were red.

I guess only red cars speed.

[Rot 911]

Unless the cop can testify that the cop who clocked the car either observed your daughters car for the 20 minute time period or they can prove no other car of the same color was on the same piece of interstate during that 20 minutes I'd say you have a good reasonable doubt case. On the other hand is it worth driving 6 hours to argue the case. Not to mention the 6 hours just to get a trial setting? I'd try calling the prosecutor and see if you can plead to a non moving violation.

[clay1g]

This is very simple: If she was indeed speeding, she should pay the fine. Since you admit she was speeding, then it isn't a case of "mistaken identity."

Cops often clock cars and radio ahead to other cops based on vehicle description.

[dotorg]

NY tickets are cheap, and at least here in MA, don't report out of state. I have lots of them.

I wouldn't bother fighting it. I've had experiences like that with sherrifs down in that area around Watkins Glen before. Three of us a year or two ago had a Watkins Glen sherrif follow us from the border of the town, all the way down to the Seneca Lodge, pulled in behind us so we couldn't back out, and spend fifteen minutes yelling at us because he had heard about three Audi's with MA plates driving at "insane" speeds down 17 the next county up and "running people off the road" -- none of which we'd done, of course... then he proceeded to tell us that the complaints had come from another county so he couldn't do anything about it.

We drove 25% below the speed limit the rest of the time we were there and went a totally different route back to 90 on the way home

We figure some townie probably got upset when they were passed by three loud cars in a row very shortly after the start of a passing zone, or something. Nothing illegal, but clearly someone got their panties in a bunch.

I just drive conservatively in that area...

[dotorg]

Oh wait, you're from NY. Not getting points isn't an option... Oops

[Superman]

With all due respect, Clay, I am sick and tired of the games State Troopers have gotten into the habit of playing. Since the game now has nothing whatsoever to do with traffic safety, I say get a lawyer and go after this conclusion made by this Trooper. To begin with, this driver was moving with the flow of traffic. If Troopers' games mean that there is safety at 60 mph only, then I guess those of us who would like to avoid tickets should cruise at that speed. Never mind that cars driving 60 mph are usually creating a significant safety hazard. That's not part of the new game.

My driving records is important to me. I'd get a lawyer and turn him loose. A good lawyer, coming in prepared for this particular case, could make the hearing a very embarrassing experience for the Trooper. Considering that the Trooper was picking on your daughter, I'd say the hearing would be a just and reasonable response on your part, and a good entertainment value as well.

Now, if Troopers would go back to their original goal of maintaining traffic and public safety, I'd be back in their fan club. At the moment, it's fair to say they no longer enjoy my support.

[1fastredsc]

Sorry dude, but from experience, don't know how old your daughter is, but being young and in a red car of any type is like walking through a lion's den with steaks taped to your body. Before i left new jersey, my RED 951 got me 12 points in 2 years. And unless you got some $$$$, fighting the ticket sometimes isn't worth it.

[lendaddy]

It's not the officers themselves, the brass tells them to "raise some money today" What are they supposed to do?

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Sorry, Chandler, AZ police win the prize.

A few months ago I stopped at a traffic light (red). A cop pulled up behind me, turned on his lights, went around me in the left-hand-turn-only lane, went through the red light, turned off his lights, and continued on with the rest of the traffic.

Apparently laws don't apply universally here.

Recently a woman pedestrian was injured when a cycle cop ran her down. The street was closed to traffic for a town event, and the pedestrian got hit as she stepped off the sidewalk. Let me reiterate--a pedestrian was hit by a cycle cop on a street that was closed to traffic.

Now, as for the Maricopa County Sherriff, they've got my vote. We're in an unincorporated area and a deputy cruises by through the neighborhood every day to give things a once-over. He is particularly fond of our dog. I've even seen them pull over people who are driving recklessly! What a concept!

[clay1g]

"To begin with, this driver was moving with the flow of traffic."

Unless the law says something like,"Speeding allowed only if speeder is moving with the flow of traffic" then you probably don't have a leg to stand on in court.

If a pack of cars is speeding and your daughters' car is the one pulled over, then it's just bad luck. She was still speeding.

I'm not at all a fan of cops but they are just doing their job. If they didn't occasionally monitor traffic, then drivers would do 120+ mph all the time. Can you imagine the pile-ups and death that would come from drivers running amok? As much as we dislike them, we need the cops to monitor the other idiots out there.

[1fastredsc]

True, but these laws are meant to protect based off of what's considered within the margins of safe operation of a motored vehicle. Now considering (and i know this from experience) the inspection that new jersey conducts bi yearly including a loaded emission test and suspension evalution (some other things as well) that traveling at 75mph on a 4 lane highway is reasonable?

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Clay1g's post is sheer nonsense. On the way up to the Glen, riding with my wife, we both commented that NY Route 17 was (as are many California freeways, from my experience as a frequent visitor) an excellent example of the way good highways--in this case a light- to moderately-trafficked four- and six-lane with long straightaways, outstanding sight lines and sweeping, gentle bends--are "self speed-limiting." The posted limits were 55 and in some areas 65. Every bit of traffic other than the occasional oldster was doing 80, which happened to be the safe, comfortable cruising speed for that road. Nobody was "doing 120." The drivers had all picked it for its reasonableness--not too fast, not too slow--and it proved once again that Montana, a few years ago, had the right idea, at least for rural areas: pick your own prudent speed limit, don't get crazy, and everybody goes home happy.

As a volunteer ambulance driver, I see accident after accident cause by mothers reaching into the back seat to cuff a kid, people jerking the wheel because they ran onto the rumble strip and consequently rolled their SUVs, blowouts in overloaded SUVs from 15-psi tires and an elderly couple trying to do a U-turn on the New York State Thruway across traffic through a gap in the center divider, to name four recent ones. But none from sheer speed.

Stephan

[Randy Webb]

As to the cop who went thru the red -- it might have been legal. You can always report him.

Oregon has a very interesting motor vehicle code provision: anyone can sue another for violation of the motor vehicle code. That means a citizen could bring a suit against a cop who broke the traffic laws (which they do frequently). I've always thought it would be fun to get the anarchists to do that. It would give them something to do besides rioting and sabotage, it would let them annoy the police, and it would give a message to the police re breaking the law they are supposed to be upholding.

[clay1g]

"Clay1g's post is sheer nonsense."

What's nonsense is saying someone should get out of a speeding ticket, despite the fact that they know they were speeding.

You misunderstood my previous post. If cops never, ever monitored traffic, then yes, people would do 120+. You know they would.

Speed itself doesn't kill. It just makes the wrecks 10 times worse.

[mwbaum]

Here in Washington with the new seatbelt law the cops are specifically told to go and write as many tickets as they possibly can.....total BS. ( I ALLways wear my seatbelt, but I think it is a total fund raising scheme)

[DonDavis]

Originally posted by clay1g
If they didn't occasionally monitor traffic, then drivers would do 120+ mph all the time. Can you imagine the pile-ups and death that would come from drivers running amok? As much as we dislike them, we need the cops to monitor the other idiots out there.

I hear what you are saying, but.....

On the Autobahns in Germany, 55% of them do not have speed limits. And I would venture to say that they have a drastically less high speed death rate per capita than we do here in the states. My point is that many folks in the U.S. view driving MUCH differently.
People say things like "I DESERVE to drive a car anyway I like. It's my RIGHT ." Germans view driving much more seriously there and if someone here knows, please descibe the process of getting a license in Germany. I thought I heard that it is very challenging. Not like the gratuitous drive-around-the-block-making-only-right-hand-turns-so-as-to-not-rattle-the-young-driver we enjoy here.

The mind set that feels driving is a right could not be more wrong.
To drive a vehicle on public roads is a priviledge. I think almost all of us in this community feel about the same. But its a guess.

Now, I think acquiring proper driving skills start early and should always be built upon. I think there should be continuing education incentives for drivers of all ages. An increase in driver to driver communication would be great. I mean, we can all communicate with at least 1 of our fingers to other drivers, right? but if you KNEW the intent of the other driver BEFORE they did it...

I am teaching my 15 year old daughter to drive and when we head out to the school parking lot, I get a bit of "oh joy, here we go again ." But I try to make it fun. Difficult, but fun. Going in a straight line is pretty easy and most early drivers get that quickly. I have her do a lot of parking, (parallel as well as backing) figure 8s and hard braking. I also have her do things WHILE driving. Turn on the radio, adjust her mirrors. Why? Like it or not, we teach our kids the right way and tell them to "Don't do this or that while driving." but when they head out on their own, with friends, they will break many of the guidelines we help them to establish. When I have her multitask in a safe setting, she can see first hand what can happen. The figure 8s are done going forward for a bit, teaching to look ahead and align the car without looking at the hood. Then she gets comfortable and I have her do the same thing while driving backwards. At first she said "I can't do that" then when she did it, you should have heard the laughter.

My point is, driving attitude is everything. Everyone says "Drivers (insert where you live here) suck." If that were really the case, that means that every one of us here suck at driving. I personally feel I put forth a great deal of effort to NOT suck at driving. And I see numerous nice gestures while driving every day.

Oh, how did I get on this box. sorry.

And I think Stephan should talk to the court AND a lawyer. Hopefully, some common ground can be attained. It does sound a bit fishy.

Good luck.

[Dan Owens]

"As a volunteer ambulance driver, I see accident after accident cause by mothers reaching into the back seat to cuff a kid, people jerking the wheel because they ran onto the rumble strip and consequently rolled their SUVs, blowouts in overloaded SUVs from 15-psi tires and an elderly couple trying to do a U-turn on the New York State Thruway across traffic through a gap in the center divider, to name four recent ones. But none from sheer speed. "

Go to any local high school in the US and I'm sure you'll find more than your share of stories about speed and death. Yeah you can attribute each and every accident to something else, inexperience, alcohol, drugs or any number of other factors but I'll bet you that 80% also involve speeding. There isn't any excuse for speeding on the highway. If you don't like the limits talk to the politicians. Don't break the law though and then claim no foul when you're caught just because the road would support a higher speed or you're a better driver or everyone else does it. Once you lose a loved one or relative or take someone's life in a situation like this you might have a different outlook.

[mwbaum]

Wrecks on the Autobahn, when they occur....are some of the most ghastly you can imagine....total carnage. Nobody survives.

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

This thread is being reduced to an argument about whether or not speed kills and whether it's morally right or not to try and get out of a speeding ticket.

Just a reminder: My original point was that since speeding tickets are demonstrably a revenue-enhancement rather than safety-enhancement scheme--otherwise, why don't cops ticket dangerous drivers who have done things other than register a certain number on a Stalker gun?--both sides need to play by the rules. If they do, there's no argument when you get caught: you played the game, you took the chance, you lost, pay up.

But when the "law" side changes the rules--"we'll stop the car because it's an Audi and it's orange, so it's _probably_ the orange Audi that was speeding 25 miles ago"--that's no fair.

In fact, for all I know there _was_ another orange A4 Avant that tripped the radar gun, not my daughter's. Who's to say?

Stephan