The economy is on the mend now. I bet Gore and Clinton will get the credit for that, eh? :)

High Five! :D

I'll never forget the fall of '92, I was working for a company where the owner gave prayer breakfasts for Dan Quail, license plate of his car said "GOP 92", (assclown), :D , and all of his managers were moping around after the election saying things like, "better sell my house now, while I can". :rolleyes:

Then of course these idiots, (as well as the rest of us), were subject to 8 years of the best economy since the invention of fire, poor bastards! I sincerely hope that they sold their houses and invested the proceeds in a company that Bush Jr. was running! :D

Just can't please some people, so no use trying. :cool:

Once again . . . Huh!?

Is there a point in there somewhere?

Was Dan Quail not part of the GOP in 1992? Or are you saying people with vanity plates are assclowns?

Can anyone tell me the correlation between the president in office or even the ruling party in the Legislative Branch and the state of the economy?

Only the (one) that said "GOP '92". Talk about betting on the wrong horse. ;) I always thought that he should have worn a beanie w/ a propeller when he drove that car. :D

I'd be more than happy to. :)

The current president has spent his way into a $500 billion deficit, with the permission of a worthless, "yes sir" congress, (controlled by his party), and waged an illegal war, (hey, it's just a technicality), :rolleyes: , to apparently avenge his father's last election loss.

Basically a several $100 billion cage match between George, "The Texas Executioner" Bush, and Saddam, "The Butcher of Bagdad" Hussein, your kids' kids will pick up the tab. No worries. :rolleyes:

Yeah, but you were just bragging about the fabulous economy heralded by the great Clinton & Gore. By your logic, the fabulous economy of the 90s is attributed to acts of previous presidents? Correct? The Roaring 90s were provided by Reagan and Bush I? Therefore, the recession of 1999-2001 was due to the acts of Clinton and Co., and you predict a sore economy due to Bush the 2nd? You might be right...

Personally, I don't think it's quite so easy.

Jürgen

No, not correct. Where did I say that? You must be confusing me with another poster, most likely Republican, they are the "skips a generation" crowd vis-a-vis the economy. The present, job-hemoraging, recession economy is the result of many things, some beyond the control of our govt., but made horribly worse by decisions of the current leadership which your kids and their kids will pay for. What part of "$500billion deficit+tax cut for the rich" do people not fathom?? :confused:

Of all the many ways I can choose to waste my time, wet-dreaming in a circle jerk of images about how poorly Al Gore would have guided this country over the last three years would be about, oh, last. G Bush is the president; it is no dream, however "nightmare" crosses my mind every now and again.

Before Sept. 11, Bush was a shapeless blob of a president. And after the attack, this nation would have taken to heart any leader who was unfortunate enough to be in office at that disasterous time. For a week or two afterward, the nation was in the palm of GW's hand. Americans were in need of direction and leadership, and we would have done just about anything asked of us. And what were we directed to do, as a nation under attack, in time of crisis? Why, shop, of course! I remember it well! Yes, if you were planning on buying a new car before 9-11, go ahead and buy it! That new house? Yes, don't delay that closing! In other words, carry on as if nothing had happened. That was the general urging, to the point that consumerism was equated to patriotism.

So let me paraphrase, steal and plagurize some infamous words, and see how well they work....

I think what we had then was a little social concern in the nation. The republicans, and all Americans to some degree, were very desirous that George Bush do well. There was a little hope invested in Bush, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of the nation that he didn't deserve.

Ed

Well said Lynn. Unfortunately, it is easier said than done to pull back and start acting with conviction instead of just politically. I don't see the descending spiral stopping anytime soon. I will not be at all surprised if GW is impeached. I also won't be surprised if whoever we get as Gov out here in CA is subject to an instant recall attempt, though it will fail.

The nastiness of our politicians is completely out of hand. I just don't know what we can do about it.

1. Amen...I think I said that before

2.Amen....I said the USA is the "fatted calf" It's our job to be the consumers in the world.

The response of the our government let alone the world right after 911 was..."Oh no they've stopped spending, what are we going to do now?"

get it ...if the USA consumer stops spending, the economy tanks...collapses.....Terrorism puts fear into consumers...and they STOP BUYING.....they start to think maybe I should put something away for a rainy day? There are getting to be very few people who can remember the Great Depression of the 30's....it's been Prosperous economic times for the USA since the end of WW2 ( CYA time yeah we had our ups and downs). It's been so long since we've had hard times that nobody can believe or remember what it was like or that it can happen again. Thats why I have been pointing the finger of doom and gloom by saying the that 911 was a close call. Everybody who is complaining about how lousy the economy is and blaming Bush oughta start thinking that it ain't Bush it's the slam that we took from 911. $200,000,000,000.00 worth.

What have been the tried and true remedies by both political parties in the past 50 years for recessions

1. Increased Govt. spending...to provide fisical stimulus

2. Lower Interest rates....to provide fisical stimlus

3. Go to war....always boosted the economy before

4. Cut Taxes... actually by cutting taxes your providing an enviroment where investing over spending is rewarded. The USA since the 1960's has rewarded spending over saving.


If anyone wants to look at the Stock Market...it hit the low in October of 2002...after the Midterm election where the Repblican Party won UNPRECEDENTED victory for a party in office. The Stock Market staarted to climb. Worries over Iraq caused it to pause until March when we invaded Iraq and it's been in a Bullish mode ever since....Both events were where conflicts or uncertainity was resolved and a course of action was decided. The Stock Market hascontinued to be Bullish as the economy is on the mend, and the war on Terrorism seems to be going well. Yet if a 911 event takes place in the USA all bets are off, and if a series of events on the scale of 911 takes place the economy is cooked... Also if the leadership in the USA seems to falter in it's resolve things will fall apart.... That is how we can LOSE the war.

Now the question arises are U going to worry about the Civil Rights of an Al Oadea member in Gitmo, an illegal war in Iraq or are you going to worry if your family is going to be eating out of a garbage can in the next 10 years? Liberal people really better sit down and think about what I said about not remembering hard times and their altruistic value system, and should decide which is more important to them.


That is really what I have been trying to get at all along.

I read that if the tax cut was repealed for the top 1% of Americans, the total savings to the government would be 25 Billion Dollars. What was the total tax cut for all Americans?Hardly worth sweating over, if you ask me.

Jürgen

Hardly incomaptiable.....Regan the Great did it.....Lowered taxes and increased spending....

Refi's are only the tip of the iceberg as to what low interest rates do...Business can borrow cheap to keep afloat, invest in capital equipment etc....

Largely true...but jobs are created to replace stuff that used up and to buy new higher tech items as they come on line.

Jobs are usually a lagging indicator in recovery from recissions.

What you don't want to reward hard work....success. If you don't reward hard work why work? Join a Uniion! It's those successfull guys who HIRE YOU to work for them. But with your left leaning attitude I can see why a business man would want to hire overseas..they are gratefull for the work.

Don't you get it...The American worker is OVERPAID in comparison to the rest of the world and as competition arises an adjustment has begun to be made in pay scales. Further government regs add such a tremdous cost to creating jobs is it any wonder so many companies opt to go overseas. Liberals can't have it both ways something's got to give...and so far it's your job.

You have an (apparently) simple economic model. Anyone who has experienced a spouse with too much free time and a creditcard can tell you spending can, and often does outpace income.

Again, a simplistic economic model. If we see deflation, we will see rates go even lower. Also, when you see large lending institutions spending advertising dollars to sell the idea that rates are "historically low . . .hurry-hurry" you can bet that they expext future rates to move at least a bit lower.;)

Interesting study I saw recently, (wish like hell I could remember where and reference it, from a fairly respected economic source if memory serves), whereby they polled middle income people about what they planned on doing w/ their Bush tax cut. By a huge majority they replied, "use it to pay down credit card debt, if any thing left after food". Not one single person planned on investing in the economy, creating jobs, etc., blah, blah, blah..... :rolleyes:

So the net effect would be to replace private debt with public debt. GENIUS!! I have news for any talk radio fans out there: If it is our money that the govt. collects in taxes, then it is our debt that Bush is running up as well. And there is a much greater than 1:1 ratio between taxes cut now and debt later, it's called interest. In the $billions. No problem though, our kids will deal w/ it. :rolleyes:

Re: Tax Cut. ..
More than the "dollar-value" of the tax cut is the value of a changing trend.

When taxation rates and methods reach a precieved absurdity point, people bail. This is what started to happen. People had been dropping out of, or circumventing, the tax system in record numbers.

Even the maffia would know not to "ask" for too much.

Making the argument that "such a small amount doesn't really matter" entirely misses the bigger picture of the direction that the taxation trend is going. THAT is huge!
It also says, even at 300bux/per, that the econmy will be better served with millions of little, personal decisions, rather than one senetors pork-barrel "study". . . .I know this responsible trend change gives me hope.

Aside: Of COURSE the little guy who got $300 bux isn't going to hire someone . .. but I will say, paying down personal debt IS generally the best investment the "little guy" can make.

Re: net effect .. You're worried about a red-herring.

Understand something; if a nation of babyboomers (for example) all save their $'s for retirement (say-stuff it in their mattress) then the effect will be less money in circulation. (read: deflation, or stagnation . . .low TVM (time value of money-interest rates).

Upon retiring, money gets pulled out of the matteress, and put back into circulation. The effect is just the same as printing up a whole bunch of new bills (read: inflation, and what you thought was a reasonable savings won't buy squat)

Ah yes, you're one of the capitalists that would prefer people enter the workforce at age 8, etc, etc.

Labor is so evil, right?

Unless you are a member of the original Lucky Sperm club from 100 years or so ago, your sorry ass would have been working in a sweathshop as soon as you were potty trained.

Like the people to whom our manufacturing was sent.

You'd be drinking water infested with who-knows-what, as your factory dumped it's waste in the river/ocean; in your perfect world, there wouldn't be any "tree hunggers" to tell them not to.

Like they do in the countries where our manufacturing was sent.

You're standing on the socio-economic shoulders of giants and don't even realize it.

It's the 'overpaid' workers that are buying the stuff that you 'businessmen' sell. You expect people to continue buying cars and computers and real estate - with what if you lay them all off?

Yeah, I remember 'Reagan The Great' - the warm reality of 'trickle down' was the poor fit of his Depends.

yawn

What are you getting at, Eric ?

He seem pretty normal, to me. :rolleyes:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1065392589.jpg

This is an extremely narrow, polarized view of the world. It's risky to buy in to ANY idealogy hook line and sinker. Yes, corporations can be "bad", but IMO organized labor can be equally bad. I'd rather not start listing details about these two, I'm just expressing a high-level point of view.

And whether you like it or not, the reason this country is so rich, powerful, and even in the position where it CAN choose to lay you off and send your job to India, is due to corporations.

They aren't out to get you personally, they are maximizing profit within legal constraints.

So you may feel screwed, and you might think corporations treat poeple unfairly. But the reason you're driving a fast Porsche in the first place is...wait for it...those evil corporations!

Now let's grab our picket signs and go protest something! Wait a minute...that doesn't pay the rent, does it? SmileWavy

But to reiterate what Thom posted....
'You expect people to continue buying cars and computers and real estate - with what if you lay them all off? '

Indeed!

'You expect people to continue their businesses of cars and computers and real estate - with what, if you sqeeze them all dry with taxes and regulations? '

A side note; I have met quite a few business founders. I have noticed one thing they have in common (besides a drive to efficiency) is a stong sense of community. Most prefer to keep their operations local, and are rather resentful if, say their base is in California, but their manufacturing is in someplace as close as Texas (still too far).

Understanding their reasoning is quite simple, really. whether a CEO or a Fireman, the people will make cost benifit judgements, as needed, to stay viable.

IF any of you out there think that "these corp's" are doing it all wrong, then why don't you step-up and show them how it's done "your way .. . the right way."

cowtown "gets it;" a proactive response (to the problem) will help, where as a reactive reponse will fall on deaf ears.
That is; nobody "owes" you a job, just because your sorry butt ended up here -- so be useful and make a job . . .if not, have some respect for someone bright enough to find something productive for you to do.

Look, people are people. There is no such thing as a greedy business owner or a greedy union worker for that matter, there are only greedy people. The greedy business owner would be a greedy union man if his situation were different. Now that our economy is relatively stable vs pre industrial revolution times there needs to be a return to raw capitolism. Organized labor is fine, just not the laws that give them power to shut a company down. If 400 people strike and 400 line up to take their place then I guess they didn't have it so bad afterall. Also, laws "helping" certain businesses should be banished as well. If a company can't hack in in business then there should not be a bailout or special tax reliefs to artificially keep them around. The further we stray from our capitalist roots the worse things will get. Think of our system as a simple weigh scale that we want to stay flat. As soon as we see it tipping one way we add weight to the other side, this goes on and on and on. Noone ever removes weight from the heavy side and that is the problem. The scale will soon crush under the weight we have added. Let the system work!

Reread your last comment...

"Hey look, we sell a lot of stuff to people living here in the US, but we can save a lot of money by moving all of those salaries to a 3rd world country."

Now read the one prior to again...

"Hey look, I have clean air and water, and I didn't have to work in a sweatshop at the age of 7, so WTF do we need all these regulations for? They're inefficient"

The regulations are in many cases inefficient, and extremely expensive and unrealistic. THAT is another reason why it costs so much in CA to do business and it will continue to bolt out of your state...the cost of producing the goods and services outweighs what the customer is willing to pay for the finished goods. MN is next...

(Tech) jobs are not being lost solely from CA. I'm in AZ, where the cost of living is pretty low, and yet my dept. is not permitted to hire within the US anymore--only in Bangalore. Interestingly, even when we were allowed to hire within the US, we couldn't find anyone qualified for the job who wouldn't require an H1B. And the pay is actually pretty good.

All the tech support calls I've made to IBM (they keep shipping crappy Maxtor drives--50% infant mortality rate--with their workstations) have been answered either in Canada or the Far East. IIRC IBM is based in Armonk, NY and is pretty well distributed across the US.

This is so incredibly simplistic. To continue your analogy, you seem to be pushing for a ladder that continues upward infinitely into the clouds, regardless of cost. The poor guy will finally get so tired of climbing that he will say "screw this, I'm going someplace that has shorter ladders."

Whether you feel like acknowledging this or not, regulations are market distortions, and they cause losses over and above their benefits. I'm not saying they are unnecessary, but they need to be used flexibly and judiciously.

Everyone (even corporations, whose people are just like you and me) wants clean air and water. But there are ways we can ensure this stuff reasonably (ie trading pollution credits and providing incentives).

We've also got to know when to say "OK, it's clean enough."

So many of today's environmentalists want perfection at any cost. It's losing them a lot of support - from people who do want reasonable pollution restrictions and controls, but not at the expense of everything else. The uncompromising, extremist attitudes of the parties involved has everything to do with our country losing jobs.

Now Living in the Real USA

In the early 1970's when all the EP laws were passed Corporations didn't have lobbyists.....they realized it was the lobbying efforts of the Greens that got the laws passed and they were left flat footed...So they decided it was time they needed to protect their interests...So thats how the Lobbyists came to wield so much power/influence on our political system.

You say "poverty" wages in third world countries...what would they be making if the corporation didn't creat a job there? Would they still be farming or working in a sweat shop for less. By thier standards they maybe making a fortune. US corporations have allready dumped enough of stuff on our ssoil to make it glow in the dark...Lake Erie, Cayuga River, Henderson NV...dumping of exotic metals and their processing by products....

CA has definately gone over the edge...if a business can't stay competive because of regulations it has to move or die. To make it personal I talk to a man in my local Post Office. I got to talking to him because he came from the smae town in CA as I did Rancho Cucamonga..he owned a Security Guard Service....quiet frankly it was the Workers Comp rates that killed him, it was difficult for him to explain it to his clients why he had to charge so much. Also when Ballys Gym didn't pay him what they owed him as he was closing the business....he wasn't able to meet payroll as he let his people go ( the business has to pay the employees within 24 hours of letting them go). Thus he was liable for a $55.00 a day penalty per worker for up to 45 days each plus the wages he owed them. The State represenative went out of her way to inform his workers even though it wasn't his fault he couldn't pay them on the due date, and his bill came to 190K. He eventually paid his workers all the wages he owed them, but filed BK and moved to Nevada. Thats a real case of a business being push out of business by state regulations.

The CA State Legislature and Govenator just doesn't get it, they continue to kill the golden goose that lays the eggs and then wonders why revenue falls off because eggs sales are down. So they then kill more gooses to make up the difference. I'm waiting for CA to file BK.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there are not things wrong with the current system. But's it's not the little mom and pop ops that are laying off tens of thousands of people at a whack, and stuffing the difference into their executive's pockets.

SO what are you saying, Thom? . . .that there ought to be a law against Americans doing business in other states, or over seas?

I think part of the problem is that, these days, laws are being enacted to screw the consumer/worker in favor of the corporation: DMCA etc.

However, Joe Q. Public is too stupid to see this and keeps electing politicians who are criminals (but I repeat myself) and line their pockets with piles of money sent in support of their "causes".

There ought to be a law against it. Now if we can just agree on what "it" is....

Why is it that in one ear I hear "we're laying off all these tech workers" and in the other "we can't find qualified 'merikuns to hire"? So is outsourcing about profits or finding a suitable workforce?

Just what are you getting at, blue ;)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1065469986.jpg

Your being a little harsh on the Democrats aren't you.....they all can't be crooks can they?

Does anyone want to compile a list?

Yeah Nostatic whats a "Meurkin"?

Well this is a special case, admittedly. We've been looking for someone degreed in a field (operations research / industrial engineering) that usually leads to MBAs or "management" career tracks but we need them to actually be able to write serious code. How many MBA hopefuls do you know who are willing to get their hands dirty in C++???

On the other hand, the truly tech-only positions are going offshore.

If you look at the demographics of science graduate programs in the US, you'd see that most of the students and postdocs are foreign...even at top tier schools. There does seem to be something to the "leaky pipeline" issue.

I don't know any MBA-wanna be's that would actually write code. Isn't that why they want to get the MBA....so they don't have to do real work any more?

Apologies to my SBO who works very hard ;)

Oh, I'm equal opportunity, Tabs. Dems, Reps, Greens, Libertarians, you-name-its....they're ALL crooks.

The only people who should be allowed in public office are those who DON'T WANT the job.