Where do these jerks come from?

[Zeke]

I might as well take this to the off topic forum, it sure as hell doesn't have anything to do with Porsche 911s.

Here's what ruf porsche has to say about an apparent isolated misdeed performed by a BMW mechanic, "My friend brought his bimmer to a repair shop after the timing belt broke. They took over 4 weeks to replace the head and they stripped one of the cam cover bolt so they just glued it back onto the camcover.

For most Mechanic that repairs cars it just a job to them and they are not going to fart around wasting time to get it right. Anyone who has built a house can tell you the same thing about the construction trade."

Out of nowhere comes this acusation regarding the construction trades. This is a totally irresponsible statement. But wait, there's more. Read some of this drivel for yourself. Stripped Tranny Drain Plug Help

I'll quarrel with this type of incitation any time.

[Milu]

Unfortunately there are a lot of cowboys in the motortrade and in the construction trade.

All of them talk as if they are masters of their trade and some actually believe it.

I have been more badly burnt by conmen in the construction trade than in the motortrade. There are good craftsmen out there, but I don't believe they are the majority. Let us also bear in mind two points:

1) The cost of labour is about 3 to 4 times the cost of materials in construction work. How many customers are willing to pay for the extra time for a much better job?

2) Bad workmanship is usually apparent but how many customers understand the difference between good and mediocre workmanship?

[tabs]

Let's add the Home Builders in Las Vegas to the list. I'm not talking about some of them or the small home builders. I'm talking about ALL of them.

1. They ALL make the home buyer sign an illegal contract under Nevada law, which limits their liability for construction defect. The potential home buyer has NO other recourse but sign the contract, or NOT buy a home. There is no negioating the contract. My attorney has said he has tried 7 times to get the legislature to act. That the Builders agree to clean up their acts, but go right back to their Bad ole practices.

2. They ALL know that a certain percentage of their homes are GOING to be defective. Yet they have made the decision to take care of the problem on the back end of the transaction, and handle it as a warranty issue. They know by handling it this way they will only have to deal with a small percentage of the defects, as most people will not take them to task.

We are not just talking about minor plumbing or electrical problems we are talking about structural and foundation problems due to expansive soil. Homes with severe problems look like bombs went off inside them. Gaps in Drywall that you could put your fist through, cracks everywhere, that practically grow while you watch them. Homes with this kind of distress are completely unsaleable. Thus your investment in the home is worthless.

The only thing that seperates the men from the boys is how well the Builder takes care of his warranty issues. That is the KEY in LV.

My attorney has grown rich off these Construction Defect cases. He owns a million dollar home in one of the prime LV neighborhoods and drives a MB G500 SUV. In my opinion he deserves every penny he makes due to the SHABBY way the Builders treat their home buyers.

[cegerer]

I investigate construction defects for a living ...... don't get me started.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Have to agree about the construction shysterism. My parents are going to be building a house here in AZ about 35 miles from me, and I'm not going to be able to keep an eye on the process. This worries me to no end.

I've heard first-hand stories that make my head spin. EVERY person I know out here who's built their own house (and that's plenty) has had some sort of major problem with their builder. And it doesn't always get put right without a court visit.

[Rot 911]

Milt, I think you just love to debate! As to the construction trade, there are a number of people who think because they can hammer a nail they can call themselves a home builder. Gives the true craftsman a bad name. As to the auto repair business, it really is hit and miss. I've seen dedicated mechanics at a Walmart garage and guys I wouldn't let put air in my tires at an upscale dealership.

[ruf-porsche]

Hey Zeke

From this list of posting, it looks as though there are more people with bad experiences with contractors and builders than good one.

As a license Architect, for the past 20 years I have seen my share of poor workmanship.

When I was building a house I provided detail drawings for all the trade people to use so that there wouldn't be any questions.

There were many times when I went to the construction site and saw that they were not following the drawings. My wife would ask me why are these people making so many mistakes on building our house. I explained to her that it’s OUR house but to most of the workers working on the house it’s just a job.

[Zeke]

I think EVERYONE is missing the point. I've had many bad experiences with all kinds of services. Not so much home improvement because I tend to DIY. But I don't have my own dry cleaning equipment, so I use a professional as with the majority of the needs I have. Do I have poor experiences? Of course. But I don’t attack a specific, and totally obscure to the point, segment of the business community as a way of expressing my disappointment over a stripped nut on somebody else’s engine.

ruf brings 'construction trades' into the fold out of the blue. THIS is what is needless targeting of an unrelated enterprise in our spectrum of services. Additionally, I feel he meant contractors as opposed to non licensed individuals because of the use of the term 'trades.' You're not a tradesman if you don't have proper training. Otherwise, he should have said ‘workers,’ or something similar.

I'm not about to try to call all people performing repairs, or attempting to build, a tradesperson . In the main thread, someone said that he doesn't like to pay the high rates for services and indicated that he believes many feel the same way. If you fall into that trap, I have no empathy. But don't let that, or other negative experiences poison the well for all tradespersons, or more specifically, contractors.

The illogical conclusion that most complaints at the BBB are related to mechanics and the ‘construction trades,’ and therefore most mechanics and tradespersons are inept, is what my anger is directed at. Yes, that’s what it says back in the main thread. Go back and read it again. I cannot accept that premise and believe that making such a statement is irresponsible and slanderous, not to mention a fallacy.

Unfortunately, and apparently, most of you have had a bad experience with building. I’m going to digress from the point here a bit and ask if you haven’t thought this out some. Do you realize how many different aspects there are to building a home? And, how many people if takes? From the planning stage to landscaping, it takes a large number of individuals, companies, suppliers and even inspectors to accomplish such a task. It might be analogous to making a movie. Except, the movie director gets to re-shoot each scene until he’s satisfied. But you wouldn’t want to pay for that, so you want perfection on the first take. Given the number of personalities that have most likely never met before on a given job. it is amazing that anything goes as well as it does, much less criticizing the whole construction genre because of a few isolated mistakes or a couple of individuals that don’t perform to expectations. Where else in the society do you have that many people taking part in an unrehersed, one off project that have never worked that excact circumstance and have never worked in concert before? Also, can you take a look at those individuals one at a time and say that they continually screw up? They wouldn’t last long. They will be culled out. This is not a reason to impugn the entire catagorie.

But back on point, if someone here, on this group of forums, wantonly and inexcusably brings about criticism of a group with no prior reference to that group in the subject matter, then you can be sure I’ll rise to the defense of the use of logical argumentative principles and against the unwarranted introduction of an unrelated group. Especially, if I’m a member of that group. (Yes KurtV, that was directed at you as well as the general reader.)

[HarryD]

I manage construction projects as part of my job. There is no free lunch. If I want the job done right, not only do I need a very clear vision of what I want, but I need to take an active part in the supervision and not depend on a third party. That means daily inspections, regular meetings and constant review of materials recieved, progress and work by the craftspersons. It is very time consuming but in the end, you get what you want.

As another observed, the cost of the materials is usually only 25-33% of the installed cost. Yet we will spend a tremendous time selecting the materials and give only a cursory review of the person doing the install.

I am always amused by folks who think that they will save big dollars by "doing it themselves". They often find the cost comes in the form of lost time due to the need to closely supervise the work of others or the time spent in doing it themselves.

[Milu]

I think we can all understand Zeke's anger at criticism of his profession and that he feels it was not warranted by the subject matter of the original thread.

However, what seems to have come out so far is that posters to this thread have had some poor experiences with the construction trade. I certainly have.

Perhaps we should run a poll of how many posters have direct experience with construction trades and what percentage of the time they are totally satisfied for the job they paid for.

Indicators could be:
job corresponds to what was requested as requested.
job finished on time
job finished on budget
job completed to an acceptable standard
No problems afterwards
Contractor stood behind his work and made good where required without quibble.
the job stood the test of time

I have had quite a lot of amateur and professional involvement with construction contractors and I don't think I was reasonably satisfied with contractors one time in ten.

[nostatic]

well, I expect crappy work, so that way if I get something that actually works, I'm happy.

In all seriousness, I've worked with great contractors who did things on time and on budget. Of course that budget was higher than most all the other bids, but I knew that the work would be good. OTOH, my neighbor added a 2nd floor, and hired a cheap contractor. They are now 14 months into the job and it STILL isn't done. And it looks like crap, and I'm sure will be falling apart in 6 months.

In general, you get what you pay for.

[Moneyguy1]

Some of the blame for poor construction work lies with the building regulations in the area where the home is being built. One individual spoke about Arizona. Where else are homes built without sheathing but 2" dense foam insulation, covered with screening and 1/4" of stucco added for appearance? And, who lobbied for this type of construction to be acceptable to local and state juristictions?

Sorry, guys....Home construction is not regulated as it probably should be. Back on the East Coast, I was in the real estate/construction business for a number of years. I understand the game and how it is played. If the fault can be covered with plasterboard or calk and will last until the warranty is complete, then the builder/subcontractor is home free. Not just the nail driver.....How about electricians with undersized 14 gauge wire in enclosed spaces, or wire nuts to join two pieces rather than cut one the proper length?

There are craftspeople out there that are dedicated and professional, and there are those who are not. The trick is to separate them. If one is going to have a home built, I recommend obtaining a copy of the local building codes, reading and rereading, making notes where necessary. If, for example, the code allows for 24" centers, ask how much ot would be to construct with 16" centers on studs/roof joists. Ask about the materials allowed for plumbing etc and how these materials react with the local soils, especially if the pipes are buried under a concrete slab. Make friends with someone from the Building Department, ask which contractors are the best to deal with, and when you get names, then ask the prospective contractor for references. Find out if there have been complaints registered against the contractor or his subs. They will be public record.

I also recommend daily visits to the site, inconvenient tho that may seem. After all, your $$$ are on the line for 30 years. The thing you buy had better last at least until it is paid for.

To sum up, an educated customer who asks questions and questions methods is more likely to have the job done right. It's a little late after you move in and have the "warranty truck" pull in with a case of calking tubes........

[tabs]

In California the Contractors License PROTECTS the CONTRACTOR and not the client. They often will file BK and reopen the next day under a new name. You literally have to sue the Contractors Bond comapany, even though you have a judgement against a contractor, to recover their bond.

You DON"T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR...I owned a RR and heard horror stories about well known RR speciality shops that charged up the kazoo for work and the work actually fked up peoples cars. It usually cost twice as much to undo the short cuts that these shops would make.

Now by the same token I have had very good luck with some contrators. My Block guy showed up on the day he said he would and finished on the day he said he would. He wasn't cheap, but he ws more than good. My painting contractor was excellent, if you have seen my Man of Wealth and Taste picture you will get the idea. His decorative finishes are excellent..and he was fairly priced for what he did.

I have a friend that is a retired Electrical Contractor, to keep himself busy he supervises the building of Custom Homes in SO CAl. He bids them out and makes sure the work goes smoothly. He is VERY REASONABLE for what you get. I have learned things from talking to him, and would pick his brain if I ever embarked on a Custom Home.

Also I have found one sub contractor will lead to another sub.

You do get what back in quality of work the effort and time you put into the project. True what is your time worth to you, what is the agravation factor worth. Taking on a Custom Home project does put a strain on relationships. But when you step up to a Tract Home Builder, your giving him a chunk of change for the privledge of him handing you a key. Your also not assured of any quality, or WARARANTY as I have recently found out. This is from one of the largest Builders in So NV.

[turbo6bar]

There are good and bad with any profession, race, religion, . There are many instances where one person takes advantage of another. ***** happens.

I despise many of the guys who built houses in my area. I also despise the inspectors who were bribed, duped, dumb enough to let some things slide. I also blame the citizenry for not acting strongly to be sure these lowlifes are not punished to the full extent of the law. In fact, I am one of the guilty citizens. I recently bought a rental property with bad drainage problems. It appears the builder dug a small pit and poured the foundation into the pit. The guy doing the dirtwork leveled the lot out, but "forgot" to put enough slope to provide good drainage. After complaining to the City about this shoddy work, they tell me all new construction must have the foundation 6" above the highest point on the lot. Well, this is probably just BS, because a few doors down is a brand new house with the foundation level with the lot.

In many instances, everyone loses. It's a shame some people lack ethics. Makes me wonder which way this country is heading. As long as pockets are being filled, ethics may be ignored.

jurgen

[tabs]

You wana talk about the Government in LV....Let's see now there are is a City Council man that been indicted, the County Commmission has at least 3 members or ex members under Federal indictment, The State Assembly has 3 So NV members that have bin fired from their day jobs...they were Professors or Civil Servants using being paid sick Leave while attending the State Legislature.... I really don't try and keep up with all the scandals going on here, I've been spending too much time on this Board so that just a quick overview of what goes oin here.

BTW they are all Democrats...

[Zeke]

I want to thank everyone who has spoken here. I'm still angry about the lack of logic on ruf's part, but that will pass.

But what I have realized here today is that I am underselling my services by competing in the market. If it is as bad as you all say, then we far outstrip all the rest (I never believed otherwise). Consequently, today I raised our labor rates by 25%. We toe the line everyday to get paid. We have almost zero call backs, so I'm going to raise the bar. My appologies to all if this eventually has a trickle down effect and you all end up paying more. I guess if you want to alleviate the problems that everyone seems to have, then you will be willing to pay far and above for excellence. It's your chioce, get a guarunteed perfect job for a premium or fight it out with some dirtbag.

This could easily be construed to be a knee jerk reaction to some criticism sent the way of contractors. It may very well be, but as I read nostatic's report, I realized that for the service I provide on a daily basis along with neatness and politeness, I ought to be paid top freakin' dollar. And so it shall be.

[HarryD]

Milt,

You should change a fair price for services rendered. Generally that means that you will not be the lowest bidder but be able to offer the best value.

I know when I let my contracts, I lok at the dollars but I also consider my experience witht he contractor. I generally prefer to pay a bit extra in exchange for a contractor who does not nickle and dime me with change orders to try to makeup for the profit he should have included to begin with.

In a recent job, contractor A was $10,000 (7% of total project) less than contractor B. Contractor B had a reputation of very few unneccesary change orders and very few repair call backs. Contractor A always had a huge list of change orders and we often had call backs for repairs. We selected Contractor B. During the job, we ran into some unexpected problems due to some hidden features neither I nor the contractor had anticipated. It required some addtional material, a delay while we waited and an extra bit of labor. I never saw a change order. Also, when we started up the systems, they worked properly the first time. Was he worth the premium?

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Milt, if for some godforsaken reason we end up in CA (rather than back east like we plan), you will be on the top of my list to build our house.

[cegerer]

There are good contractors out there for sure and it sounds like Milt is one of them. But there are an unusually high number of poor ones. The licensing exams in most states are a joke. Take a 1-day seminar, take the test the next day and you're a "Licensed Builder"!! I testified in a construction defect case and the builder was asked by the judge if he had a copy of the building code in his office. Nope. OK, do you know which building code is used in your area? Nope. Have you ever heard of BOCA or UBC? Nope. Well, how do you know if you're building something according to the code? I've been building for 25 years, I don't need a code. This genius had constructed a large home on a bluff overlooking Lake Huron that collapsed 3/4 of the way into the project during some moderate wind gusts. I never used temporary bracing before, why would I used it now? It's an Act of God! Unfortunately for him, the judge lived just down the road on the same bluff and cynically asked him if he was aware that the wind 'occassionally' does gust off the big lake ........"

You get what you pay for. I've been in the remodeling biz, homebuilding biz and now do multi million $ commercial real estate/construction projects. If anyone choses a low bid contractor without a good and binding contract with legal recourse, then you're one a one way trip down the Hershey highway. Other people don't screw you, you let yourself be screwed because you are too lazy to check references/background, and or you don't get a good contract. It's all big freakin game.