Land of the Free

[Purrybonker]

http://www.charleston.net/stories/060103/wor_01jailbirds.shtml

[turbo6bar]

Poor little guilty criminals. {cue fake crying}

Do you want me to give you a cookie, Purrybonker?

With the oil stolen from Iraq, we will hire Wal-Mart to build a MegaPrison in Baghdad. It's like a Wal-Mart Superstore except employed by prisoners with shock collars. The MegaPrison will manufacture and sell American SUVs to Iraqis. Since there will likely be a shortage of qualified prison workers, George Bush will enact new laws designed to incarcerate liberal pigs. Then, we will give illegals the homes and jobs of the newly jailed liberals. So, in one massive program we have dealt with Wal-Mart, prisoners, illegals, liberals, and the excess petroleum stolen from Iraq (pay for prison and burned in SUVs).

[BlueSkyJaunte]

He's from Canada.

Don't worry, we'll get around to annexing you guys sooner or later.

[turbo6bar]

Canadians feed criminals to polar bears. We don't have polar bears. D@mn global warming.

[Purrybonker]

..scathingly brilliant analysis and reparte here.

Do you want me to give you a cookie, Purrybonker?

...ouch. Oh yeah, well your mother wears army boots and you sir, are a poopy pants!

[waybrig]

Very interesting article Purrybonker. Too bad it didn't spur any better replies than this. Unfortunately it seems the pervasive American attitude is to not worry about what is right or wrong, but whether or not you can get away with it. It seems like lawyer mentality: everything is ok if you can rationalize it to yourself. Unfortunately, these crooks aren't very good at getting away with things.

Our society allows people to basically rise as high as you like based on how hard you're willing to work. Unfortunately many people would rather take the easy way out and mooch off the hard work of others. Even our business leaders do the same thing. See Enron, Worldcom, etc.....

In the end I don't think there is any government conspiracy involved here, just a simple degradation of our society. Maybe this is why other countries do not wish to become "Americanized".

[Icemaster]

Posit an alternative rather than sitting on the sidelines and lobbing metaphorical sour grapes.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by waybrig
Maybe this is why other countries do not wish to become "Americanized".

Because life was so very much better under the Taliban or Saddam, right?

[Purrybonker]

I posted this as part of my continuing effort to expose some Americans to the possibility that childhood or romantically simplistic notions of "good and evil" may not be valid as a premise for international relations.

It does appear to many of us outside of the US that your administration sells an apparently gullible populace some pretty absurd premises on the basis of white hats vs. black hats.

This reference was intended to illustrate the irony that the US is the worst offender in the world in one of the most basic measurements of what defines an undemocratic government - the imprisonment of it's population. The obvious irony is that the American government uses the same "denial of fundamental freedoms" to justify invading and killing the citizens of a foreign country (Iraq, Afganistan, etc., etc., etc,...) to the American people.

Americans are the world leaders in putting pragmatism into meaningful practise. Why then does the American "right wing" seem to have difficulty accepting that the actions of their government are based on pragmatic foundations (e.g. security of oil supply) rather than fairy tails of ridding the world of evil?

Such acknowledgment would indicate intellectual maturity rather than subscription to "conspiracy theory.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by Purrybonker
one of the most basic measurements of what defines an undemocratic government - the imprisonment of it's population.

Support this statement. And use apostrophes correctly while doing so.

Do you really think "undemocratic governments" publish accurate numbers about their incarceration rates? Or maybe they just execute them instead of putting them in prison, with no due process.

[island911]

Gee, PB, you pegged us Americans. . .we're all just a bunch of 'gullible souls hanging on to a childhood romantically simplistic notion of "good and evil"

Hey, wait a sec. . .your Canadian, eh? . . . I thought you had to be German to be Beyond Good and Evil.

(Read: I not be buying your 'intellectual maturity' )

[rcecale]

From the article:

"Why, in the land of the free, should 2 million men, women and children be locked up?" asks Andrew Coyle, director of the International Centre for Prison Studies at the University of London and a leading authority on incarceration.

How about because these same 2 million people can't abide by the laws....like the rest of the over 200 million can???

Geeze, how stupid can this guy be?

"Freedom" in this country includes "freedom of choice". If these people "choose" to break the laws that society has put in place, what else should we do....send them to Canada???

Randy

[Purrybonker]

How about because these same 2 million people can't abide by the laws....like the rest of the over 200 million can???

That's a great example of a simplistic interpretation of a complex issue. Seems non-sequiturial that such a large percentage of the population can't (or doesn't want to) live by the rules of the nation that touts itself as the worlds guardian of personal freedom. You would think that the opposite would be true...

It reminds me of what my police inspector friend used to say (jokingly) about the problem with wives that get beaten by their husbands:

"the problem would go away, but these women just wont listen!!!!"

(...woo hoo, I was able to edit my punctuation before BlueSkyJaunte caught me!)

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Always vigilant. That's my motto.

[damouth]

Originally posted by Purrybonker
It does appear to many of us outside of the US that your administration sells an apparently gullible populace some pretty absurd premises on the basis of white hats vs. black hats.

...based on what? Does the Canadian government tell it straight every time? Just because some official tries to sell an idea, regardless, doesn't mean everyone's going to buy it. THis is just the type of mindless American bashing that goes on every day. Some American politician gets on television and makes a statement, then the rest of the world takes the traditional "self righteous" attitude and says "Boy those Americans sure are dumb to buy that."

WHO says we bought it? The TELEVISION?

If you'd spend more time talking to people that quoting articles from some news source, perhaps you'd have a different opinion.

This reference was intended to illustrate the irony that the US is the worst offender in the world in one of the most basic measurements of what defines an undemocratic government - the imprisonment of it's population.

OH, so locking up citizens is UNDEMOCRATIC? That's preposterous!!! Need I remind you that every citizen in this country has a right to a jury trial. It's not the government that's locking them up my north american brother... It's the OTHER CITIZENS.

The obvious irony is that the American government uses the same "denial of fundamental freedoms" to justify invading and killing the citizens of a foreign country (Iraq, Afganistan, etc., etc., etc,...) to the American people.

So you believe the Iraqi's were better off without us eh? Do you? Yes or No?

Such acknowledgment would indicate intellectual maturity rather than subscription to "conspiracy theory. .

In other words, agree with OUR conspiracy theory, otherwise you're not intellectually mature? While not every action taken may have had such noble beginnings as presented... Not every action is some US Gov't conspiracy to take over the world either.


As far as that article goes, what a crock. Is it suggesting that a large percentage of these people are wrongfully convicted? They NEVER say that, nor would they dare I suspect. If not, then the real issue is that too many Americans are committing crimes. Too much free time I suspect. A successful (at least it was) economy breeds restlessness. Hence the "politically correct" movement, higher white collar crime, etc.. When you are worrying where your next meal is coming from, you have less time to worry about being "offended" by someone. COmes with the territory. Human nature for conflict.

[tabs]

Watch out Canada you might be next on our invasion list...oh this message just in....sorry ahhh it has come to my attention that we the USA allready own Canada...Wonder what the rent would be if I put 2 Hotels on Canada....

[waybrig]

Is it just me, or is the US in a "can't win" position as the far as dealing with the rest of the world today? It seems the only way we can gain approval is by becoming a victim and never fighting back. After 9/11 everybody loved us until we started defending ourselves. Now we are supposedly the evil ones killing and torturing citizens in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc... just because of our own selfish desires.

I for one have the ability to use my own brain. I see a US where we are allowed to question and criticize our leaders freely. I see a justice system based on the rule of law. I see our leaders trying to protect our citizens from those who want to cheat and/or kill us. I see a system that lets us throw out our leaders after four years if we don't agree with their actions.

I see a country that after World War II rebuilt Japan and much of Western Europe into the independent countries we see today. It's pretty unique in the history of mankind that a conquering force (with the Allies) turned these countries back over to the citizens rather than keeping control. Those same countries are now free to disagree/criticize us, and often do. What does this say about Americans?

Now in Afghanistan and Iraq we are trying to do the same thing, establish a stable society and turn it's governance back to the people. Sure the plan isn't perfect and in execution extremely difficult. I for one applaud the Bush administration for having the guts to do what it believes is right in spite of the widespread criticism.

So, I believe we are trying to do the right thing. I wish it hadn't come to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, just as I wish we didn't have to fight Germany and Japan some 60 years ago. In the end our country and our leaders are not perfect and will make mistakes. I believe history will show however that what we are aiming for will benefit mankind as a whole, not just Americans. I believe that's what happened after WWII and if we are successfull in rebuilding Afghanistan/Irag, it will happen now.

[rcecale]

Originally posted by Purrybonker
...Seems non-sequiturial that such a large percentage of the population...

WOW!!!! 2 million out of well over 200 million....doesn't even equate to 1 full percentage point, and THAT'S a "large" percent???? 2 Million in Canada may be a lot, but not here.

The real key to this is to look at what those 2 million are in jail for. Granted, there are undoubtedly even some that are there that shouldn't be...can't/won't dispute that.

Those are the people this article should really hi-light. But then, EVERYBODY serving time has been convicted by a jury of their peers (except for maybe that Padilla guy-the suspected Dirty Bomber).

I'm not going off of any statistics here, but my guess would be that in the States we actually have the LOWEST percentage of people behind bars that have been wrongly convicted.

Randy

[island911]

Originally posted by Purrybonker
. . .It reminds me of what my police inspector friend used to say (jokingly) about the problem with wives that get beaten by their husbands:

"the problem would go away, but these women just wont listen!!!!"

You do make a valid point there.

That is; if Canada lets husbands 'be free' to beat their wives, then certainly you guys have it over US in "freedom" AND will have less of your population in jail.

maybe you're smarter than I give you credit for.

[Purrybonker]

Watch out Canada you might be next on our invasion list...oh this message just in....

oops, this message just in...

The last time the US tried that Canada disliked it so much that they not only repelled the attack, but they marched all the way to Washington and torched the Whitehouse in retribution. (I think that gets glossed over in some history books, look it up - circa 1812)

But then, Canada seems to have evolved beyond invading other countries in retribution for their bad behaviour.