Made a Goof-Up with the Wife - need opinions...

[cegerer]

Wayne? You're using LOGIC on a women's BBS ...... that was your CHOICE and a bad one I might add .......

[MrPants]

you are both correct and logical in your argument. pehaps thats why they resent you?
in my experience when arguing with a woman you can either: admit that they are right, or escalate the argument indefinately.

Congrats on the child by the way!

[joeclarke]

...well of course you are correct in you reasoning Wayne. But that and twelve bucks will only get you a venti-something-or-other at Starbucks as far as women are concerned.

But you knew that. Yet you over-simplify/romanticize in your reasoning regardless of your audience.

Why, I want to come over there and slap your face right now!

Of course life is about choice. Any of us could all chuck it all and go live on a desert island or (in my case) go live in the forest/mountains and raise our families in the most moral and healthy environment possible for the benefit of our children.

But alas, 99.9999% of us don't - mainly because we get yanked in 9 billion different directions about what is the "best for our kids" and what we should do to make our lives better by all (tongue not in cheek ) the different pressures in society. That and we're just plain soft - but we really do mean well!

Some of us are more immune to those pressures than others. But we all look to the world for validation of some kind that the choices we make are correct. Whether it's a virtual pat on the back on this board for wasting $9 million on solid platinium SSI's or a few appreciative glances at the club for that spiffy little black dress.

Society tells women that they have to be "all-that" as far as the choices they make about family/kids. Men get pressured in slightly different ways.

Cut them some slack mr. voice-of-reason. Forget it, I can't even look at your face right now - go sleep on the couch!

[osidak]

Hi, I am OSidak's wife and was looking over his shoulder as he read your thread. I just want to say "thank you". I am currently a stay at home Mom with our 10 1/2 month old. I do believe it is all about the choices a person makes. I chose to stay home because we believe it is best for our child. Women are under pressure to "have it all" everyone just has a different perception of what "it all" is. We decided to give up somethings in order to "have it all' with our child.

thanks for supporting stay at home moms.

By the way those bat a peguin scores were legitimate

[Moses]

Let's look at this rationally. What are our goals in raising a child. How do we define success? If we keep it real basic, most would agree that our parenting is successful if our children grow to become happy, productive, responsible people.

So how do we measure that? How does having a "stay-at-home" mom affect our chances of success? Look at a few facts: Kids raised with mom staying at home tend to use drugs less, are less likely to have criminal records, more likely to graduate from college and less likely to divorce after they marry. Having said that, all objective evidence suggests that being raised in an intact two parent household is the single most important factor in predicting "success" in raising children. All other factors pale in importance.

What is the single greatest statistical predictor of lifelong poverty? Having a child out of wedlock. Seems provincial, but it's true.

So before a mom decides whether she needs to stay at home with the kids, she first needs to have a clear idea of what her goals are for parenting. The most critical element of success is to stay married.

[imcarthur]

Wayne, your argument fell on deaf ears because these women are driven. One of their most basic human instincts (if not THE most) is on ‘turbo boost’: reproduction of the species.

Our obsession with cars pales faintly in comparison to the obsession these women are experiencing. The need to be a mother is both biological and societal. And of course, society is filled with experts. So you, unfortunately, came into their crosshairs as just another expert.

You will not win.

[singpilot]

Wayne, Wayne, Wayne......

I cannot imagine how such a rational position has set off a firestorm.

I have never seen that on your board.

I cannot imagine where these emotions (possibly hormonal?) come from.

Am really glad that never happens here.

Best of luck.

[Overpaid Slacker]

Wayne -
Anywhere you go, there will be people that want to exchange ideas with the goal of improving their own understanding, becoming better informed and perhaps changing their opinions.

Then there will be people with a bovine impenetrability to fact and reason. Proving their farce wrong (to any dispassionate observers) has no effect on them other than inciting their wrath. And, sometimes mere seconds later, they will repeat the mantra they've programmed themselves with as though it's been unscathed by what you've had to say.

In my experience, the most intransigent of these types are those with a victim (life done me wrong) mentality. A large part of their psyche is tied up in this oppression mindset -- in part, I believe, b/c it absolves them of responsibility for the consequences of their inaction. Blame "the man" b/c he's kept you down, blame the system that won't allow you to do or have everything you want, but never, ever look in the mirror. You held up a mirror.

Children involve huge actual expense, and in my opinion, more importantly, opportunity costs. Many of the women you encountered suffer from incredible pressure from self-imposed contradictory "requirements."
Musthavekids musthavekids musthavekids (due to deep seated psychological compulsion)
plus
"musthavecareer musthavecareer musthavecareer (from BS societal "peer pressure")
plus
lack of introspection and self-accountability
equals
ten tons of dynamite looking for a place to go off. You stumbled into their abyss and, hoping to shed some light, lit a match.

JP

edited to reconcile metaphors

[surflvr911sc]

A classic male “I’ll fix it”. Our wives are tougher then we give them credit for and they don’t want us fighting their battles for them, as long as they feel supported.

You guys are right on, I’m all for a stay at home parent, either one.

Wayne, Congratulations!

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Wayne, one thing I have learned about women (maybe the only thing) is that they rarely want to hear the solution to their problem(s)...they just want sympathy. Men usually try to provide solutions. Especially men who are engineers.

That said, we've already planned out our life. Next year (after I'm fully vested in my 401k), we get the hell outta Dodge, move back East, wife stops working, I get a new job (or telecommute to my old one), and raise some little ones.

I'll be god-DAMNED if some stranger is gonna raise my kids. Fortunately my wife agrees with me. Plus we'll have the added bonus of being within a day's drive of both of our parents...instead of a day's flight.

[Moneyguy1]

Wayne..As a (now retired) counselor, I will attest to the fact that many women are driven by emotion instead of logic. That being said, discussing an emotional subject and expecting a rational solution can be very difficult, particularly when it comes to money and children. First off, my most difficult job was trying to make people understand the difference between "needs" and "wants". The desire for "instant gratification" seems to grow with each succeeding generation because of over indulgence of the current generation's parents. Without sufficient emotional bonding, some of these parents tried to compensate by increasingly "giving in" to their children's requests for material goods.."I have to work when your school play is on, son, but I will make it up to you by buying you your own 25" tv for your room." So, through no fault of their own, the kids grow up thinking that the possession of "things" is more important than other facets of life, and instant gratification becomes the norm. If mom HAS to work, for reasons already covered, all well and good. Most "single parents" that I have dealt with make certain that the reduced time they spend with the kids is a higher quality time. Those parents, however, who are "driven" by material success, act the same at home as they do at work: detached and unapproachable. So the cycle continues. Everyone needs a "center" around which their live revolves. For some it is family, for many it is "success" measured in terms of public perception; the big house, the SUV(s), etc. There is a commercial in which the man says "How do I do it? I'm in debt up to my eyeballs". At the end, the looks helplessly at the viewer and says "Somebody help me..." Sorry, no outsider can help him. It is a mindset that the individual must wrestle with and overcome. And for many, without past experience of how to form close relationships, it is at best difficult. And, limiting emotional bonding with children can result in problems down the line as the children enter their teen and early adult years. Children are not stupid. Inexperienced, yes, but they do intuitively know what they need, and subconsciously can grow to resent the lack of "parenting", becoming poorly adjusted adults. One psychological study of "successful" people said that the majority had difficulty forming close personal ties, and much of this was the result of diminished emotional and psychological role models. If I can find the reference I will post it, but it was a number of years ago, and was a University study....

I prefer to see Mom (or Dad) stay at home as a "working parent" (there is no more difficult job in the world) at least until Junior is in grade school. It provides a safe, predictable environment, something that most adults crave as well. Imaging being a child and knowing you have so little control over your environment, and things can change at the whim of an adult? Parents should try to think of things as the child does before making rearing decisions.

Lastly, if a totally materialistic lifestyle is desired, the potential parent should think carefully whether having children is the correct choice, not only for them but for the potential children.

[id10t]

Our second child is a month old now, and my wife has been an at home mommy for 3.5 years now... and will continue to be for another 4 or so.

The salaries around here for what she will tolerate doing for a job just don't pay enough to justify shelling out 200+ a week (per child) for child care. Between that, tax deductions, etc. she'd be bringing home about 500 a month extra real income.

Between teaching a course as an adjunct at the college I work for, and the side jobs I do doing home and small office networking, I bring home more than that extra per month above my regular salary, with a minimal amount of extra hours working or away from my family.

Thats just the financial side - I'm sure we can all agree that it is much better for you to raise your kid than to have someoene else raise him/her for 6+ hours per day.

And being an at-home parent isn't easy either. Not to mention taking care of the kid, going to play groups, doctors visits, etc. there is the cleaning, cooking, etc. to do as well. Look at it this way - she stays home, you pay her (your salary - 20% for P-car fund) per year to take care of your kid and your house.

[LeeH]

Wayne,

Everything you said is 100% right. But as Dr. Phil asks, "Would you rather be right, or happy?" Buy a copy of "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" from Half.com. It will be $1.25 well spent. Like Aaron said, women want sympathy, not solutions.

I agree with everything you said in your post. People rarely accept that today's life is a result of yesterday's choices. If they don't understand it now, odds are you aren't going to be able to explain it to them. I'm guessing that many people who can't get by on one income would also feel that you are very "lucky" to own successful business. Locus of control is deeply rooted.

You obviously have an internal locus of control. Let me warn you that being a new parent might be frustrating for you. Your primal urge to protect your offspring will come up against a world where people frequently think of themselves. Aggressive driving, smokers, swearing in public, people who cough within 100 feet of us, noisy neighbors, unleashed dogs, etc., etc. all were annoying or unnoticed before, but became a threat to the well being of our precious daughter after she was born.

[power]

I am probably not qualified to respond here (not married, no kids) but I'll add in anyway......Whenever I'm faced with major descisions I try and gather as much data and research as I can. I try to look at and consider all available options.
I would talk to other couples that have dealt with the same descision in different ways. Considered stay at home dads Vs. working dads?
Job sharing was quite popular around here a few years ago, one woman I know found it a great compromise.

Quote: "and have a discussion about it "with your people.""

You know "your people" will always advocate an exhilarating ride on a deserted mountain road in a 911 to solve all problems known to mankind...

[imcarthur]

I have had the fortune (with some misfortune thrown in) to be involved in the rearing of children in both a ‘stay at home mom’ situation and in a ‘working mom’ situation.

The ‘working mom’ resents the ‘stay at home mom’. She longs to be able to stay home too - even if her life choices/circumstances make it ‘impossible’. She also feels fear and guilt. Fear that she is harming her child by not being a perfect ‘stay at home mom’ and guilt that it is ‘impossible’ for her to do so.

The ‘stay at home mom’ is more complex than would first seem. White bread and apple pie, right? Of course, the ‘stay at home mom’ secretly feels the ‘working mom’ is borderline neglectful. But ‘stay at home mom’ is forging ahead into an isolation bubble of children. And giving up a whole lot of contact with the adult world. Goodbye meetings, business travel and peer recognition and peer admiration. Hello car pools and birthday parties. This can carry dangers, which resound years later as the coop starts to fly away to school, friends etc and she is no longer ‘needed’. You have to be there for her then, because she won’t have a work environment to give her recognition.

Which children fare better? Ah, not so easy.

For me, still a story in the making . . .

[Decolliber]

Here is a line I have heard many times in 25 years of marriage:
"I don't want rational solutions; I want you to understand my feelings."

[Moses]

Originally posted by Decolliber
Here is a line I have heard many times in 25 years of marriage:
"I don't want rational solutions; I want you to understand my feelings."

Classic line from the movie "As good as it gets."

Girl, (gushing over author Jack Nicholson): "How do you write women so well?

Jack: "I think of a man, then take away reason and accountability."

Tried not to laugh too hard, was sitting with my wife at the time.

[pwd72s]

Wayne? There must be days when you'd rather be the stay at home parent. I also think a good case can be made for not having children...having "been there, done that"

[KFC911]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
But, I got a little peeved, so I joined the board and posted a reply (first mistake).

Wayne, Wayne, Wayne...I thought you were smarter than that... Congratulations by the way!!!

[nostatic]

well Wayne, not to go against the trend or anything, but I'll offer a few observations. First off, you started your post with an insult to much of the audience, and then followed it up with condescension ("first let me say that I'm sorry you're so stressed and guilt-ridden about leaving your child at home. That is perfectly apparent in the undertones of your original message."). So at that point you could have then offered a diet that allowed them to eat chocolate and lose 5 dress sizes and they wouldn't have heard it...you already pissed them off.

No matter how logical *you* think your argument is, having children is not logical. It is biological, psychological,emotional, and sometimes, accidental (although they know what causes it these days). So you thinking that you can offer a cold and calculating argument to address the situation shows *your* error in thinking.

This is a lose-lose situation. The maternal board equivalent of an eRam or cool-collar thread.

While mars and venus might be involved, the two groups have more similarities than you think. Each just convinces themselves that they are "different." The key is never to tell the other one what the *right* answer is, and accept that some decisions are based on emotion rather than logic. After all, what sane, logical person would own a 25 year old Porsche?