Serious Question for Conservatives:
 

OK, I'm just curious whether Bush and company has slipped in any of your eyes over the whole Iraq scenario as it pans out. This question is not intended for those who dislike him to start with, but rather his supporters, ie. people who voted for him.

And if he has disappointed you, do you still feel the need to support him/them for political (partisan) reasons? TIA. :cool:

Was Clinton responsible for everything the conservatives accused him of? There is a very large group of people that mold the options delivered to our Commander and Chief and the decisions made are often a reflection of the burocracy involved to get those options to him. Our government is much larger than the man sitting in the top executive position, and I know you know that.

Did we do the right thing? I was there, I sent my wife, in my jet, into combat, on the first night of the war. Am I biased because after going through that I need to believe the risk she took was for a very good reason? Absolutely. I always remember seeing for the first time the mass graves, and then people rejoicing, that was very powerful for me. I knew we were doing the right thing. Have there been times since then that I have doubted the reasons? You bet.

We did the right thing for the Iraqi people as far as I’m concerned; the question left to be answered is, did we do the right thing for the American people? Anyone who thought that this would be quick w/o heartache is a fool. Think about what as been accomplished, over throwing a government by force in one of the most hostile regions of the world, establishing a soon to be free government, opposing extremist that would rather die than see us succeed. Yet, after almost a year people still rejoice, although many have become frustrated that it is still not over, Americans included.

The only doubts in my mind now are whether or not the lives being lost are worth the results. If you look at it purely being a defensive move to protect America, no doubt you are pissed. There has been no solid evidence that Iraq was an immediate threat to the US. There also was no solid evidence that terrorist were ready to fly our own commercial planes into our cities. What would you have been willing to sacrifice to prevent that?

Building a better Iraq (now that we are there) has to be seen through. Many Americans who supported the war would like to see us pull out and leave the Iraqi people to sort out the mess. What kind of credibility would we have in the world if we were to actually do that? Iraq would be into instant civil war, right or wrong we started it, it’s our duty to see it through.

IMO, GWB has done a good job. Is he perfect, hell no, do you expect him to be? He is clumsy, arrogant, pampered, privileged, as are most of the men that reach that level. I truly believe that the intentions of everyone who reaches that esteemed position are true, and then there is politics.

No - war was sucessful for stated national security objectives.

I voted for Bush. Knowing what I think I know now, I would vote for Bush again if the elections were today and Al Gore was still the other choice. I support the war now the same way I would have supported it if Clinton would have finished it.

The stuff with Halliburton irks people (myself included), but anyone who didn’t realize that this was going to happen when they voted is not paying attention. The big oil/big business/Halliburton connection was well known. This is nothing new and should not have shocked anyone.

As far as healthcare and insurance (in general) goes:
I don’t believe what any politician says about health care. We are being lied to from every angle, so I don’t get emotional about it. We are maybe 5 years away from socialized medicine in this country. I don’t feel good about socialized anything, but it’s a catch 22. You can’t protect the big companies from frivolous lawsuits and scams and at the same time protect people from the insurance companies after the almighty dollar.

It’s hard to make a blanket statement about anything like this, but one of my biggest complaints is that Bush ran as a fiscal conservative and has been less fiscally conservative than I feared the other guy would have been. There have been a lot of variables thrown into this equation since the statement was originally made, but I still think it’s an issue.

Biggest Compliant:
The job market sucks. Who do I blame?

Shuie you are my hero, well said! I agree with everything you said. We are getting to the point now where such a small percentage of our citizens actually pay any real taxes that the majority will simply vote themselves a piece of the pie (I.E. socialized health care). Heck even GWB's tax program decreased the number of people in tax roles and shifted an even larger percentage of income taxes to the "evil" wealthy. I am dissapointed with his lack of fiscal responsibility lately but we will no doubt get me vote. I see his spending as a flesh wound to the lost limb of a Kerry administration. I cannot help but think he is tossing carrots to get control of both houses in Nov then go balls to the wall. We'll see.

One word: coalition

Had Bush (US) taken its time with the whole Iraqi war I would feel differently about him and his admin. It's true that maybe some of our European friends would have never joined up, but at least we would have given off the impression that we weren't looking for a war.

With that being said, I'm for the war, but not the way we went about starting it.

To answer your question, yes Bush has slipped IMO. I have never voted democrat, but I think I could give Kerry or Edwards a chance. And not just b/c Bush f-ed up, I think those two democrats are real good candidates. I suppose we will see what happens this year. One thing is for sure, Bush isn't guaranteed to have my vote.

Health care from the same people that brought you the DMV is scary.

The Veteran's administration and Indian affairs are examples of government run health care, and both are woefully inefficient. Let the government fix it itself there before turning control of the national system over to them.

I don't have a problem with anything you said up until this line.

There's PLENTY of work out there. Don't listen to the lies the TV and papers tell you.

The job market has been for 30 years, and from now on, will be changing, moving and dynamic. People have to learn to change with it. Early 1900's thru the sixties a person could get a job at a company and be there for life. THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN ANYMORE! And to point at Washington and say "You are causing this. I can't find a job!" is unfair and says more about the person screaming it that the job market itself.

I'm not attacking you Shuie, just disagreeing with the job market take.

Oh, and Healthcare??

Stand by, that's about to be thrown on its ear. Costs have been rising for years and those increases have not been passed on to the masses proportionately. It's getting ridiculously expensive for companies to provide healthcare coverage for employees.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do know that I have to be ready for change.

It's not just the costs. It's the insurance cos. gouging.

There was a thread about this somewhere; Moses had a very good take on it.

Disagreeing is fine. Its cool Don, it makes me look at things from a different angle. I don' interpret it as an attack at all. I don't know the answers either :). Don’t misunderstand; I wasn’t pointing a finger at Washington or the President. That wouldn’t make any sense or fix anything.

No argument that we need to be versatile enough to change as the economy does. I’m lucky that I’m currently in a field that has a lot of activity. It’s not exactly what I went to school for, but I’m constantly looking around and trying to keep my eyes open for something that will keep me a step ahead.

My fiancé has 3 degrees. She graduated ChemE in 2001. She has a Chemistry degree and is an accountant as well. Her unemployment extension was cutoff short Jan 1st due to something that didn’t get passed through congress this year and budget issues for 2004.

As far as the notion about there being plenty of work out there goes, it depends on where you are and what field you are talking about. My fiancé is currently working as a straight commission professional recruiter trying to place other professionals in new jobs around the country and hasn’t seen a check since her unemployment was cut short in January.

I know there are some signs of an improving economy, but the job market still sucks in a lot places in this country for a lot of people. If I get run off tomorrow, I might get lucky and be on a plane doing short term consulting gigs within a week. I’m not expecting anyone to get out their violin for me or my career path though.

I don’t believe what the TV or papers say about the unemployment rate at all. Sure it’s gone down, but why? Not because of new or re-instated jobs. It’s because everyone that was on emergency unemployment extension has been cutoff. Maybe that’s what it means when someone runs as a fiscal conservative :rolleyes:

Blue, you're right. They definitely gouge. Thats as big of a problem as the firvolous BS lawsuits are IMHO.

<i>"There's PLENTY of work out there. Don't listen to the lies the TV and papers tell you."</i>

Yeah, it was supposedly even worse a year or so ago. Nonetheless, I had an <b>extremely</b> difficult time finding anyone to even apply for an engineering position I was offering at a base salary of $75,000 to $100,000!!!!! That probably puts you in the top 5% - 10% of wage earners in Michigan!!! The resumes that did come in were a joke. I thought there were engineers being laid off, downsized, and outsourced all over the place. Apparently not. :rolleyes:

Cegerer, are you still hiring? I have some engineering friends who might be interested.

Denis, Bush has lost some credibility in my eyes, but I admit I do not read the newspaper or watch the news. At best, I catch NPR in the late afternoon maybe once a week.

For me, the issue is support Bush or look for an alternative. The Democrats haven't presented anything appealing. Seems to me the 2 parties are identical aside from lip service. I wish there was a legitimate and honest third party. The problem with the two parties is they hash out too many ideas with no roots in reality. No one wants to address real solutions, because sometimes real solutions means pissing off the wrong people (i.e. Bush and his immigrant policy). In exchange, we see politicians trade barbs and sling mud. I'd much rather see them talk about how they can make the country better. Even if I don't agree with a "real" solution, I still respect the effort.

No matter who is in office, somebody, somewhere, will hate his guts. Who's the last president who received unanimous love and adoration?
Jürgen

<i>"Cegerer, are you still hiring? I have some engineering friends who might be interested."</i>

I am, but I insist on all my engineers driving Cayennes as company vehicles .... maybe that's why I got such a poor response ..... :confused:

Thanks for the responses. I know that there are some pretty divergent opinions about the Iraq war around here, (and everywhere else), but I was just wondering if Bush and company has slipped in any of your eyes. It has not been the best year for them, regardless of how they might try to spin it otherwise.

I for one don't buy for a minute the whole, "Iraq is going fine, it's just the negative media telling you otherwise", story, (like WTF else are they going to say??), do all of you Republicans/conservatives still like this gang? (Meaning Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, etc.)?

Just thought that I would do my part to change "the tone" a little around here. I have been guilty of, (and had fun with), arguing pretty hard w/ you guys, but I do respect most of your opinions and you might be surprised to find that I would agree w/ you on several issues. Just not Bush & Co. I do not think that the U.S. is well served by their leadership. Please continue if you wish. :cool:

And Jurgen, Thanks, I agree with you about hard choices. I wish that my keyboard had the (2 dots) to spell your name correctly. There is so much that is great about the U.S., I have a completely different view of how to preserve it than the current leadership.

What we have now are candidates who will say anything for votes, I would love to hear a major candidate give some tough news and solution. Bush tried to sell himself as a "conciliator", (should have been suspicious when he couldn't pronounce it), ;) , he is anything but. The country and the world is far, far more divided than it was 3 years ago. :cool:

LOL, cegerer, one guy I'm thinking of used to drive a Mustang Cobra. A Pfefferwagen would be a trade up, I think. ;)