High School Diploma is Worthless

[tabs]

There was an article in todays newspaper that said that the HS diploma was the most worthless public document. That it amounted to nothing more than a certificate that the student attended HS. That HS ill prepared students for either the work force or high education. The panel that came up with that assesmentt said that to make the diploma worth something scholls would have to go back to more rigorous classes. That Geometry and Algerbra, and English be taught as core classwork. Needless to say Teachers and representatives of school districts dismissed the report.

However in CA 50% of the Freshmen attending CSU system have to take remedial English before they can attempt College level class work.

I say let's start with Stupid Johnnys parents as being responsible for this sorry state of affairs. 1. they don't demand more of the school system in the way of quality classwork 2. They seldom oversee that Stupid Johhny is doing his work, and demand that he be prepared. Instead of watching MTV. 3. Stop using the school system as daycare. 4. Stop blaming everyone but themselves when Stupid Johnny turns out to be a failure and has trouble maintaining a job at Burger World, his boss says that he has a hard time figuring out which button is the Happy Meal Button.


Next let's take on the School Districts. 1. School districts have more secratarys and administrators than teachers 2. School systems should require a core curriculum that prepares students for the real world. As in requiring students to take a class in how to write and balance a check book etc 3. school districts should back teachers up, and stop with the revisionist educational ideas. The three R's are just fine the way they were. 4. Shools should stop worrying about being PC. When a little girl gets suspended for a week for saying the word HE!! something is wrong in Denmark, Ohio.

Third the State Legislatures should 1.make schools competative, by allowing School Vouchers...parents pay taxes that support school systems, so they should be able to be smart consumers and use there money to buy the best education for their child that they can. But will the Teachers Unions allow this NO, BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY WOULD BE OUT OF A JOB. 2. Renumerate teachers on doing a good job 3. Break the School Teachers Union as being an unnecesary evil

MOre ideas anyone????????

[Purrybonker]

I'm generally with you on your numbers 2 & 3, with the minor caveat that as the ex-spouse of a high school teacher I feel some of their angst. There are no easy answers on this one.

As to your number 1 - fahgetaboutit. Kids gotta stand on their own two feet, particularily by high school age. Damage is long done in terms of parents being a good or bad example by that point.

Man, when I went to high school my parents didn't even know where the joint was let alone givin' me guidance. But that was the seventies and I'm sure my parents were laden with plenty of angst (or something) of their own. Nonetheless, we try to protect and coddle kids far too much as it is these days.

I just check the attitudes of the smart johnnies that make into my organization these days and shake my head.

[tabs]

Teachers in and of themselves really aren't to blame. After about 5 years of dealing with the BS, I would say most teachers throw up their hands and decide to collect a paycheck until retirement. My solutions are not just HS specific but are for K-12. We might as well just forgit about the current generation of students as being lost, and wipe the slate klean.

[exc911ence]

If it's all you have, a high school diploma is an important thing but if you've gone to college/university, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. My .02.

[tabs]

It's better than not having one for sure...what kind of loser can't get a HS diploma these days...if your warm and breathing they pass em out to ya. I worked as a sub-teacher at the HS level as a part-time job. I was a fly on the wall so to speak and could observe things first hand in a coupla of my local districts. One thing it didn't make much difference between a good school and a poor school, they were about the same. I had classes where 70 to 80 % were getting D's and F's. Write a coherent sentence or paragraph haaa....At lunch one day I heard the math teachers talking about how the district I was working in is going to get a big surprise because about 70% of the kids couldn't pass Algebra. In CA passing Algebra is a requirment for graduation. I asked a counselor at one paticular HS what % of Freshmen don't graduate..he said about 60%.

[Overpaid Slacker]

I believe the difficult, politically suicidal reforms (eviscerating teacher's unions, trimming the staffing bloat, and discarding tenure-which has got to be the largest moral hazard in history) would vastly improve education more than sticking cattleprods up parents' asses. But, given the state of the world, a HS diploma would still be useful only as a baseline entry credential for other schooling.

For some reason, we've got this sentimental attachment to teachers and it's taboo to criticise their sinecure or the neat little racket they've got going w/ the union and tenure. So when a presumptively right, caring educator says "it's the parents, it can't possibly be us!" we turn on the parents like a stabbed rat. The parent situation is insoluble; period -- so it provides a convenient perpetual excuse for poor educator performance.

Educators (these are all generalizations) are not among the most intelligent people I know; not among the most dedicated people I know, and sure as ***** are not among the hardest working people I know. Why this fawning, blinding deification?

If the foregoing paragraph read as though I'm being harsh to teachers, I'm really not -- it is likely that you are used to putting them on a pedestal, and any statement that pulls educators down to the level of normal people seems heretical.

Where I'm going is -- why all the incredibly preferential treatment for practitioners of a fairly mundane profession. The treatment itself guarantees sinecure, sloth, virtually total lack of accountability and almost no incentive to try hard, much less to aim for excellence. W/o those qualities evident in our educators themselves, how are they going to be conveyed to their students?

Also, I agree w/ Tabby about bucking the PC curriculum revisionist bull*****. This is where parents could be most helpful -- pressuring their school districts to drop "zero-tolerance" policies and adopt policies that are reasonable and still effective.

JP

[concentric]

Originally posted by tabs
It's better than not having one for sure...what kind of loser can't get a HS diploma these days...if your warm and breathing they pass em out to ya. I worked as a sub-teacher at the HS level as a part-time job. I was a fly on the wall so to speak and could observe things first hand in a coupla of my local districts. One thing it didn't make much difference between a good school and a poor school, they were about the same. I had classes where 70 to 80 % were getting D's and F's. Write a coherent sentence or paragraph haaa....At lunch one day I heard the math teachers talking about how the district I was working in is going to get a big surprise because about 70% of the kids couldn't pass Algebra. In CA passing Algebra is a requirment for graduation. I asked a counselor at one paticular HS what % of Freshmen don't graduate..he said about 60%.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have taked my GED Freshman year and gotten out of HS all together. What a waste of time, college likewise. If I wanted to hear an ******* talk all day, I'd just as soon as eat a lot of refried beans and fart a lot.

While this approach won't work for everyone in all professions, I've probably taught myself 100 times the useful and useless knowledge that they impart in high school just by reading on my own. High school (with the exception of AP math and science classes) was a moot point by the time I arrived.

JCM

[tabs]

Look at it this way teachers get slamed from the school administration and from the parents. If they were bright they wouldn't be teachers, they would be doing something more important! Like making tons of money in Tech. U Overpaid just described my HS counselor friend. He sits in his office all year, the only time he comes out from hiding is when he has to administer the State Tests and then he complains about how hard he has to work. Every year he and his wife a 4th grade teacher take long vactions to exoitic places, while I wound up taking care of their dam mutts, birds, cats and plants. Now you know why I really moved.

[Schrup]

I have no HS diploma, I had to drop out of school & support myself after 9th grade because the old man threw me out of the house. It has never been a hinderence to me. I got a GED when I turned 18 & joined the USAF on a special program 2 years later.

I do have 2 years of college & scored higher on my SAT than my honor roll brother in law. I have been a foreman on jobs that I had people under me with master & bachelor degrees. I currently have the job Ive always dreamed of. The three years I wasn't attending high school I was learning about responsibility & fending for myself, it was a tough road I would not wish on any kid.

I am trying to give my 16 year old daughter every chance to succeed & moreover a chance to enjoy being a kid. I have no memories of HS friends, proms, or graduation, only work & partying. No regrets, I played the hand I was dealt, I won't ever be rich, but consider myself successful because I am happy.

[vash]

you cant even get into college without a HS diploma.
but i know a guy with a college degree from a great San Fran school that is totally wasting it away by being a lazy a$$ stoner. it is whats inside that counts. pride and a good work ethic. Life and schooling are the same, great if you are willing to take the most out of it.

i love Schrup's reply.

[Moneyguy1]

Schrup:

Kudos, kid....Life ain't fair; we do the best you can and it looks like you did more than most.

Those of us who did it the hard way seem to have a slight edge in the compassion department.

[dd74]

Soon a BA degree will be worthless.

But by that time, college might cost close to six figures for four years.

And I'm not talking private colleges, either.

At that point, I'm not entirely sure higher education will be worth the outlay. I mean, six figures?

Once again, college will be as it was before WWII, where a university education was reserved for mostly "rich kids."

Wasn't this what the G.I. bill was supposed to erradicate?

[tabs]

Education will always be worth the outlay. If education is equated as gaining knowledge.

[john70t]

I think the early years of schooling should be for making kids enjoy the process of learning. It should have challenges and rewards but always be involving at their level.
People will go through anything as long as they feel they are part of a group they can compete with on a friendly level and that has a saftey net/element of common sense. Blame it on parents/teachers/hollywood whatever but that ain't happening nowadays.
It's o.k. though, time on an engineering degree would be wasted because all those jobs are going to be outsourced.

[dd74]

Originally posted by tabs
Education will always be worth the outlay. If education is equated as gaining knowledge.

That's a laugh, and definitively shows a generation gap between some romantic idea of education and stark reality.

When I received my Masters degree, I was distinctly told by three professors in my department to not pursue a Phd. They said: "It'll cost too much initially, and you'll never get paid your value." That was ten years ago.

I know a professor in the Physics Department at USC - he has Phd graduates working under him for $18,000 a year. Ridiculous! People who can figure out secrets of The Universe and can teach those secrets, but making $18K yearly.

No child left behind, huh? Does that apply to kids about to embark on a $100,000 bachelors degree, if they can afford it, which most cannot. Or a grad student having canned beans for dinner -- again tonight? Why is that the case when he or she can outthink most of the planet? Is it because they didn't receive a degree in some "hip" and "wanted" major like Law or Business?

It seems in this country, higher education is losing its value on a semester-by-semester basis.

[tabs]

Education is a life long pursuit...whether you gain it in the class room or on the street of hard knocks.

[concentric]

Originally posted by tabs
Education is a life long pursuit...whether you gain it in the class room or on the street of hard knocks.

Thank you, platitudes man!
That's some good stuff there.

JCM

[turbo6bar]

Originally posted by dd74
No child left behind, huh? Does that apply to kids about to embark on a $100,000 bachelors degree, if they can afford it, which most cannot. Or a grad student having canned beans for dinner -- again tonight? Why is that the case when he or she can outthink most of the planet? Is it because they didn't receive a degree in some "hip" and "wanted" major like Law or Business?

It seems in this country, higher education is losing its value on a semester-by-semester basis.

In Georgia, you can get a free ride to a state school. The lottery in Georgia pays for your tuition. You must be a resident of Georgia to be eligible. In Memphis, TN, you can get a scholarship if you have good grades in high school. Any student can apply, and no person is turned down if you maintain good grades and honor your civic commitments. This is the Fogelman Scholar Program. Free rides are there for those who want it. It's not my fault some people live near or want to go to an expensive school.

The US is top-heavy. Everybody wants to major in Management and work at a Fortune 500 company. Nobody wants to be a carpenter or tradesman. The reality is the tradespeople are making the good money, while the PhDs are working at McDonalds. PhDs are in low demand. What percentage of jobs require a PhD-level education? When supply exceeds demand, their price goes down.

College is overrated, in my opinion. The ability to think, make decisions, and act are far more valuable then regurgitation of books. This is valid for the average layperson and average job, and not a nuclear physicist.

Get back to the basics. Teach kids how to read, write, and add. Then, teach the runts how to think. Maybe let kids suffer some. Let them know a dollar is not easy. Society has fooled people into thinking success is going to school and getting good grades. BS. It's a lot more complicated than that. A scientist is only as good as the words from his mouth. An engineer is worthless without motivation. A million dollar salary is peanuts if you spend 2 million dollars a year. Wow. Don't teach you that stuff in school, eh?

My point is school is only good to an extent. You still need to develop skills above and beyond. I'm proud to have a Bachelor's Degree, but when I got into the real world, I realized how much I didn't know. Luckily, my parents gave me some street smarts. Without that, I'd be some dumb schmuck going for a PhD, because I didn't have anything better to do...

All I ever needed to know was covered in Kindergarden...

[dd74]

PhDs are sometimes a pursuit of love of the subject. I'd never rule out getting mine; it just isn't worth the dollars and time at this moment. Maybe when I see the darkness closing in at the tunnel will I decide, hmmm. I'll get my PhD. At least I'll go into the ground as a "Dr."

Meanwhile, I remain hopelessly jealous of those who do have PhDs.

[surflvr911sc]

If you trade up for an SC, you can be a "Dr."

I’m one of those uneducated, self taught, common sense guided though life kind of guys. Admittedly, the only hard knocks I went through was the ones I made for myself. I always had the opportunities to be involved in what ever I chose, including college, but I chose to “do it my way”.

I gave up in school around 7th grade, by 10th I wasn’t even making the effort to show up half the time. If I happen to be there on a test day I wouldn’t take it, even if I knew the material. When I turned 16 I asked my dad if I could take the CA Proficiency Exam and he agreed knowing that it would either be that or I’d end up dropping out. The Proficiency Exam was supposedly based on the state’s projected knowledge level of the upper half of a 12th grade graduating class. This tells me that the level between 7th grade and 12th grade is the same since that was when I stopped learning from the school system. Sad. I took some college classes, but really wasn’t ready to be in an environment that mirrored HS, and that didn’t last long.

In hindsight, it would have been easier to suck it up and get my degree. The issue isn’t money, it’s doors, the number of opportunities that are available grow exponentially w/ the level of education, regardless if the person is an absolute moron when it comes to performance or common sense, w/ exceptions.

The ability to make money is influenced by both, I have done fairly well but I will never be rich and that’s fine w/ me. You can go far w/ intelligence and hard work, but the opportunities are still limited in our highly educated society. An education won’t make you rich either, unless you have a lot to back it up w/ and the motivation to work your ass off for it, exhibit A- my wife.