Anyone else hate new Porsche?
 

Hate is a strong word but I find it hard to swallow post "Dr. Ferry" Porsche. The Boxster, 996, Cayenne, and there isn't the dedication to racing that there used to be.
It seems Porsche is just resting on its laurels. Porsche used to make unique, subtle, monsters, now they are moving more towards being just a regular production car company.
Its the bottom line instead of the finish line.
Any thoughts on this? Can we hope that there will be a performance revivial at AG, or is Porsche banished to '12 way adjustable seat' limbo forever?

I love cars, not car manufacturers. Ford vs. Chevy, BMW vs. Ferrari vs. Porsche, Japanese vs. Domestic vs. European, I couldn't give a rats a#s.

Back on thread, the only car Porsche ever made that I was interested in owning was the pre 90's 911. Actually the word "interested" is inappropriate, "obsessed" is more fitting. I also would love to have a Ferrari 512 BB, a BMW 2002, a 60's Mustang GT-350, a MBZ 300sl, the new Mini, and a WRX STi.

Walking on a Porsche sales floor today is (for me) equivalent to walking on a Nissan or Ford sales floor.

The new Porsches , including the "9" series,just dont do it for me. Not saying I would turn one down, but I'd take a 80's 930 turbo over a new one any day.

Porsche died in 1997.

The funny thing is that the same discussions and opinions seen on this subject here at pelicanparts can be seen at the German enthusiast forums as well. Heck even 996 owners complain in Germany, not just the aircooled cars' owners.

In short how I see things can be said this way: They (Porsche) could have done better. They water down the brand to make money now. So it's like peeing in your pants.....

The magic is disappearing and that's the problem. :(

i like them all! well maybe not the cayenne.

Being new to these boards and most likely missing the hundreds of thousands of posts on why the pre-90's 911 is the end all be all of cars, I find it amazing that there is so much dislike for the newer product. I don't own a black and white TV, I let go of my super cool Artari game station, I even have a touch tone phone. I accept the new.

I love the heritage, the challenge, and the feel of the older cars. I still love my MG. But I love to utilize what limited driving skills I have developed and apply them to the newer cars available. I sure being a Boxster owner, I know I have some people that don't respect that car and believe it is not a true Porsche and I will hear about it... But I love the car...as much as I loved my

68 Firebird 400
69 Mustang
71 Midget
72 MGB.....etc....

Whenever I see a complaint, I always like to ask two questions. First, is it valid? Does it make sense? Is it fair, logical, just, etc.? Second, given that the answer to #1 was "yes," what can I do about it? Generally, I've found this makes a lot of useless complaining go away, and points me towards generally more constructive criticism.

So ... Is this valid? I'd like to think it is. When I was a small boy, formulating my opinions about what my dream car was, Porsche was winning at the track. I was raised in the philosophy that Porsches are track cars, race cars, and supreme winners. Today, that is different. After 50 years of producing racing cars, the breed is definitely watering down. The factory no longer fields a team. That said, of course, the new GT3 is quite a car, and the 25 that will be built are already all spoken for. Modern technology is really quite fantastic. I still love the newer cars for their engineering.

Part 2 -- what would I like to see from Porsche? What would _you_ like to see from Porsche? Classic roadsters? A return to the purists and the track of legend? I honestly don't have a problem with them building SUVs, as long as they also build serious track cars, cars that are ultimately and supremely fun to drive. Therefore, what can we do about this problem? Perhaps we could write letters to the nice gentlemen at PAG? Perhaps a letter signed by a bunch of people?

I continue to agree with the posters who argue for older classic Porsches and the older classic philosophies, but I tire of the endless whining, and seek instead for a solution.


Dan

Perhaps Porsche needs to fire the coach? Won't happen as long as the beans roll in...

Nope.

Evolve or die.

Absolutely! The Cayenne was a necessary vehicle for Porsche. The sports car market is in the tank these days, and in order to survive, Porsche needed to create a 'mass-market' car. Some may argue that the Cayenne is a 'watered down' Porsche, but it is this 'watered down' Porsche that is enabling Porsche to continue to build 996's and 986's.

Unfortunately, it seems that Porsche is no longer confident enough in their cars to feel they can enter AND WIN significant races. While private owners race and many wind up with podium finishes, it would be great to see some more involvement in racing DIRECTLY from Porsche AG.

Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.

Z-Man, I agree. It sure would be nice to see PAG run their own races. I'm not at all bothered by the Boxster or the Cayenne -- their sales provide money to further to Porsche cause. Funding from Cayenne helps further the engineering that makes these cars great. And like some others say, while you can argue about the styling, the new engineering is better than ever before. Still, I want to see Porsche racing!

so, do you think porsche will make a mini van? that would be evolution.

Z man. The sports car market is far from being the tank. Look at all the sports cars or sporty cars coming to market. What makes it tough for Porsche to sell their sports cars is the fact that price wise they start at $50,000 and I can go buy a WRX STi that will trounce the Boxster for $20,000 less. If Porsche where to build a low cost light weight sports car I do not feel that could keep them on the lots. However management feels a cheap car dilutes the brand. A SUV or a Sedan is ok though.

Ok so now you would argue the Porsche is built better has more soul. The new cars have no more soul than my VW Jetta. There is no racing background for the 986, a N/A 996 can not be tracked with out modifying the engine. They are over weight and too big. Porsche's have had their fair share of quality issues as well. I do not think 30 years from now there will be as many 996 on the road as there are air cooled 911's on the road.

I understand people want those things, build them but also take care of the people that push the Porsche Brand further. A typical 996 driver could care less where Porsche came from or where they will be 5 years from now. Most on this board do.

Yes private race teams race and win with the 996 based cars. Great for them. They do so because the 996 is still capable enough to do so and also they are largely uncontested in their class.

Porsche doesn't have confidence in their own cars. That is the saddest statement I have ever read. If they don't have confidence why should I. Maybe they should realize their roots are in racing and improving the road cars by what they learned on the track. If they don't then the 997 or future cars will not as worthy of a track car.

As for they needed a mass market car to keep building the 986 and 996. Yes the market for a SUV is greater than a 2 door sports car. What is the market though for a vehicle that starts $55,000 and goes up to $90,000

That market is much smaller than a 2 door car priced between $25,000 and $35,000

Without the Cayenne, Porsche would be in serious financial problems.

-Z.

So, I have a question (not meant in a disparaging way, just as a general 'then & now' way): How many of you who dislike the new porsches can afford one right now? I have to say I didn't really like the 996, but since I couldn't afford one it doesn't really matter. So far, I like what I've seen of the new 997. But I still can't afford one, so again, who cares? Probably no one at porsche.

Of course, I don't think the water cooled engines signalled the death of the 911 either. (i would do unspeakable things for a 959...)

Sure I think it's sad that porsche is slowly becoming 'just another auto manufacturer', and was very disappointed when I heard that they were jumping on the SUV bandwagon. But I think (especially compared to something hideous like an escalade) that it truly is a porsche in spirit even though most old porsche-folk avoid it like grandparents avoid the rebellious pierced and tattooed teenager at the family reunion.

On the other hand, though, you have cars like the GT3 (want one!) and the Carerra GT (ditto) that demonstrate to me that the old porsche is still in there. It's just evolved to fit the times.

In an ideal world, porsche would take the Carerra GT to LeMans and start kicking everybody's ass again.

Unfortunately, in reality porsche has not been gobbled up by some mega-corp to be paraded around as the crown jewel and allowed to be a loss-leader. (how many peopole think ferarri makes an acceptable in business terms positive cashflow?)

Ok, sorry about ranting. Hope that made sense. :D

Dan :)

I don't hate new Porsche, excepting GT2 & GT3 it's too bland and vapid for such a strong position. I am indifferent, which from a marketing viewpoint is much worse.

Porsche died in 1972. That's was the beginning of the end. Why? They listened to the doctors and lawyers buying their cars and changed the sensible racing 901 shift pattern to something "easier to use". WTF? It's been all downhill ever since ...... I'd never buy anything newer than a 71.

I also liked the racing pattern. I wish my g50 had it. What I don't understand is why they used it on the 924Turbo, (most underated Porsche ever?) but never even offered it as an option anywhere else as far as I'm aware of.

I thought porsche died with the 356?

;)

The 928 had a dogleg 1st gear, IIRC.

I *could* own a new 996 if I really wanted to. If I really, really wanted to I could probably swing a Turbo. I have better things to spend (save) the money on. Wife, kids in the future, and many other hobbies. Like not having debt.

The Morgan factory motto..;)

So I guess my question really was: is a Porsche that produces SUV's (i don't even want to think whats next, sport sedans? pick up trucks? http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/...oilet_claw.gif ) better than no Porsche at all? I almost would prefer Porsche to go chapter 11 clutching its racing heritage than become a production car company. I mean, is Porsche really Porsche when it doesnt compete in Le Mans? (Chevy is currently more comitted to racing than Porsche for god sakes)

If i could have any Porsche right now for free, without paying any taxes, I'd take a 73 911 over a 2003 911 without thinking twice. I do like the GT3, but thats only because it reminds me of pre 1997 Porsche.

>>The Cayenne proved itself yet again as the growth engine for Porsche. 1,446 units of the sporty off-road vehicle were delivered.<<

1446 cars a month equals 17,532 a year. If I remember correctly Porsche expected to or needed to sell 25,000 a year. They are short by 31% which is pretty signifigant.

911 sales are down as not many people in our society can afford a $75,000 to $180,000 toy.

The Boxster while a great car performance wise can be beaten by any of the current Japenese Hyper Sedans (WRX STi or Evo8) and they cost almost half of the boxster and offer more room to boot.

I have had the time to find sales figures for either of the cars but I suspect it is higher than the Cayenne. I know the Touareg is out selling the Cayenne easily. In my area I have seen maybe 20 Cayennes and a boatload of the VW's. For a point of reference we have pretty high dollar cars running around my area. Some of the most notable Enzo, Maclaren F1, 959, GT2 and GT3's, F50's

So in short the Cayenne maybe helping by adding 17,000 cars a year or maybe it is hurting as it took resources away to develop a new sports car and or racing, maybe it hurt as it drove some potential 996 / 986 buyers away.

Do you not think a small light sports car from Porsche that cost in the 25 to 35 thousand range would not out sale the Cayenne?

I Can't understand it? Why don't they?

- The 911 RS
- light weight.
- 2.7-3.2
- 915
- Simple interior with VDO gauges.
- Targa with a solid removable top. Leak Proof
- Good Recaro seats
- Electric AC. No load on the compression.

30,000$. out the door

If Ferry was here he would say its a go.



Benson :cool:

I don't believe Porsche was ever in the economical sports car business. The 356 Speedster was probably the closest in concept to that idea but even the Speedster was expensive for what it was compared to its competition.

1) Porsche has NOTHING to prove, Chevy does.

2) Chapter 11? Are you serious!??! That has to be one of the most ass backward comments I've heard a Porsche enthusiast say.

3) Yes Porsche made the Pepperwagon. Yes it is water cooled. Yes a Turbo V8 costs over $120k. But guess what, it goes from zero to sixty in under six seconds and will keep you planted in the back of your heated leather seat until you reach 165mph. Porsche broke out of their mold and made the best performing SUV EVER. That makes me proud, not hateful. Chevy and ford have been making trucks/SUVs for years and Porsche just kicked them in the balls.

HAH! The pepperwagon would even out perform most of the cars owned by the members of this board. My SC sure as hell won't go 0-60 in 5.6 seconds.

4) Does age come into play here? (Not antogonizing)

I have a feeling that 'age' is coming into play in this discussion. It may be that some of you long time loyal Porsche enthusiast cannot handle the change you have seen over the years?

lol

1) In racing you never have nothing to prove. that is the principle that helped Porsche win Le Mans 17 times

3) ANY car that costs $120 grand better do 0-60 in less than 6 seconds.

4) im only 22. if you are accusing me of not being an enthusiast for long, you are correct.

I thought older generation wouldn't take to the newer model Porsches as much as the younger generation.

There goes my theory. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Porsche won Le Mans 16 times ;) .

http://content3.us.porsche.com/prod/motorsport/History.nsf/usaenglish/rennsiege

<i>"I don't believe Porsche was ever in the economical sports car business. "</i>

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1078619708.jpg


A $30K Porsche???? Is that what we want ...... to turn Porsche into an ecomomy sportscar company competing with Mazda and Subaru and Toyota??????? Porsches have never been economical and have never been built as value leaders. When new, they have <u>always</u> been out-of-reach for the average person. But they have generally been on the forefront of technology. I don't see much that has changed in a general sense.

I thought for sure they would enter the Cayenne in the Dakar (for marketing if nothing else). They didn't even do that!:confused:

And didn't GM enter the Hummer H2? Talk about confidence.....

Agreed!

Unfortunately, the pencil pushers running the company are not risk-takers. They run their probability numbers and determine that the odds are against Porsche winning these days.

Guess what: THE ODDS OF WINNING WERE NEVER IN PORSCHE'S FAVOR! (Well, until the 917's...hehe) I believe that is one of the biggest appeals of Porsche's racing heritage: they were the underdogs, the 'impossible winners.' They were the Davids the slew the Goliaths.

Seems that Porsche management has lost sight of this! Their idea is: if we don't risk racing, we won't loose.

A sad day indeed.
-Zoltan.

Zoltan, you may have stumbled into something there ..... Porsche is now the 'Goliath'. Anything short of outright overall wins is completely unacceptable to them, their customers and their fans. That's a tough standard to live up to. -- Curt

From an economical standpoint, Porsche is still the David, IMO.

-Z.

Their new logo in the cneter of the Porsche crest should be a bean counter, or a cost benefit analysis chart.
Somewhat on topic i went to the dallas auto show this past weekend and i sat in/looked at the new Boxster S. To me, it was the most impressive car at the show. They still make great cars, its just not the same. Its like when a band breaks up and then gets back together with 3/4 new members: they may be good but its not the same band

The new GT3RS and GT3 are very smaart cars..
They will oneday find the Race track again.