This is funny...I mean, you are aware that Evren posts from Istanbul??? :D

Moses,
I'd stay away from the superauto's, personally. It is possible to make a very decent brew with them, but to my taste they are the tiptronic equivalent of the coffee world.... ;) For the same $$, you could get a much better semi-auto or classic machine. (The semi-autos have programmable water debit)
For endless discussions, the pelican-equivalent of coffee:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&group=alt.coffee

Ok, this isn't a troll, despite the fact that it may look that way, but I just don't get it. I mean, I love my espresso an' all, and I can tell the difference between Safeway beans and Kona when I make my coffee, and I can tell the difference between a good grind and a bad one, but I just don't understand how a $400 grinder will do anything that a $100 grinder won't. The technology, ultimately, is pretty simple, and has existed for hundreds of years. Are there modern innovations that make the grind a totally different thing? Is there some level of precision and quality control just orders of magnitude above the rest that makes the $400 grinder "worth it," while the $100 grinder is just mediocre? Aside from the relative inconsistency of it, is there anything _wrong_ with the $10 grinder from Target? Tabs? Pat S? Evren? Isabo?


Again, this isn't meant to be a troll, and I'm really honestly not trying to inspire hatred and malcontent among the serious coffee drinkers. I am sincerely interested in learning the difference between the el-cheap-o stuff, which makes acceptable coffee, and the high-end stuff, which makes perfect coffee. TIA,


Dan

Biggest difference in grinders is consistency over time and quality of materials and assembley I think. But I'm a rank amateur on the subject.
In order of importance I would say:
Roast
grind
quality of bean
Any of the real experts care to expand/correct?

I read an interview with one of the taster/buyers from Peets. He said the spinning blade type grinders do not offer a consistent grind. He said any type of burr grinder, whether electrical or mechanical would perform beautifully. He said a cheap burr grinder would perform quite adequately.

Do most of the big names in coffee produce a reliably good roast? Can you tell the difference in raw quality between roasting your own and purchasing somebody else's roast? Who here DIY roasts?

Isabo, your priority list is just for the stuff associated with the grinder, right? It seems that the quality stuff associated with the espresso maker itself are more important than the grind, yes? Thanks again (and in advance, for the uber-elite coffee drinker experts who haven't yet weighed in).

Moses -- that's good to know. I assume that the difference between a good grinder and a cheap one would be the consistency of the grind. A cheap grinder will vary the level of grind from time to time, while an expensive one will always always always provide the same granularity? I concur that the spinning blade grinder is a bit inconsistent -- it's different every morning. But then, I'm not entirely certain that's a bad thing, myself. A little variation keeps things interesting. :)


Dan

In my years as a bartender I've made (and consumed) way too many espresso beverages. The biggest killer for espresso machines is coffee grounds making their way up into the head and pressure system. Our industrial machine needed to be professionally cleaned on a regular basis, and I spent 15 minutes every night at closing cleaning the sucker.

The new consumer grade espresso machines are very cool. I would avoid the "full automatic" deals that grind, tamp, brew, and dump grounds with a single button push. Too complex, and I imagine not very durable with so many process points. Go with the machines that support the coffee pods - no mess, keeps the machine clean, and easy to work with.

At work we've had a Starbucks Barista Athena for over 2 years. It gets used by 3-4 people everyday. No problems. Wife and I just bought a Starbucks Barista machine for our home and it does a great job. We've used espresso pods from Starbucks, Illy Cafe, and Espression. All are good.

David -- dumb question, but how do coffee grounds work their way up into the head? I certainly won't contest that this happens, because I've seen it in my own machines, but I don't understand how low pressure coffee grounds can swim upstream into a high pressure steam system. TIA,

Dan

Yeah I'm no expert either, but the tech said that the machine generates a slight reverse pressure at the end of the occasional pull (term for pushing water through that came from the old handle machines) that gradually moves the grounds further up with use. It may not be a problem with consumer models - still I prefer not having to deal with it, and 2 years no issues, no service calls, tells me that there might be some truth (half even) to the story.

Those priorities are for the ingredients.
Pick your coffeemaker according to the kind of coffee you like to make but I found there's one golden rule for all of them: Keep it very clean, and be careful what you use to clean as it can taint your coffee.

In my mispent youth in America I worked in a coffe shop in Alexandria, VA for several years.

We had a great time trying all the different beans and mixes to get the perfect expresso taste.

We roasted our own beans on the premsies and had a top notch burr grinder.....it was a commercial operation and a simple but high quality manual expresso machine. No autotimers etc etc,. all done by hand and experience.
The result, we drank a huge number of single shots to get the taste to our liking and well, the customers just loved it.

Mind you not many wanted the single shots, or a 2x single shot which for my money was the most delightful way to get started. So we used to get seriously caffined up every morning and just soar all day.

Blends are very very personal as is the degree of roast need to bring out the different oils in each type of bean.

We used a base of Kenya on a med roast with a Columbian on the lighter side as I recall, then a make up of Blue Mountain or Sumartran depending on the mood. A very rich taste but with a 'short tail'. Our idea was to not have too many of the heavier essences in the blend to linger on the tongue. These tend to be on the bitter side and can spoilt that post coffe taste.

Needless to say the heavy duty grinder was essential to maintain a predictable grind for the machine. The simpicity of the manual was countered by the need to have a certain eye and skill to consistently 'pull' a good expresso. Its like riding a bike, easy when you know how but still takes some learning.

Fortunately making a couple of hundred a day gives you enough practice to get real good.

For home use however there is no single right answer; a French press/ caffetiere with a lighter coffee will provide a long weaker drink which can be good.
All of the expresso machines can produce a passable single shot....although unless they are hard plumbed into the water mains the presssure avaliable will often be a little on the low side, but I haven't looked in detail for a few years.

If you really like expresso look for the best pressure vessel you can with a larer cold water reservoir. That way you can play aorund for a while without having to refill every fice minutes.

We used to warm the machines up and run a few empty cup thro the heads the mornig to get everything wet again before the first real pull of the day, which we inevitably consumed to check it was all OK. Similarly in the evening a few empty runs did help keep the heads clear of grinds and keep everything.

If I recall properly then cleaning the steamer pipe was the most difficult job, making sure all the milk was clear of the blow holes etc.

Oh the joy.

Since then I keep well away from most comercial coffee shops expresson etc....better to stick to something that never surprises you and nobody can screw up....instant.....

Pretty much what MFAFF said (I'm only an enthusiastic drinker, not much of a maker).

The actual blend is personal taste. The guy from Starbucks came to New Zealand and said something condescending about how the local coffee roasters weren't bad but their roasts were a little "green", which is amusing because Starbucks has a reputation for being heavily over-roasted.

I like quite a full bodied and relatively dark roast with not much milk if it is a milk based drink (eg, a double shot, plus about the same amount of milk). This sort of coffee tastes great black too. Most of New Zealand likes lighter, medium bodied roasts with a lot more milk (Allpress coffee is much loved but kinda tastes like dishwater to me).

So it comes down to taste (assuming it is made well).

That $400 grinder will last 50 years with periodic burr replacements, and can grind 7kg a week(!). A $100 plastic burr grinder isn't really worth the cost of servicing, so you would buy a new one. Up front cost for quality or disposable and cheap? The performance difference is apparently fairly minimal for the average home user.

I would never buy a fully automated machine as, if they break, it will cost a bomb to fix. And they will break.

MFAFF -- thanks for the well-thought out answer. That's very helpful. Also thanks to Isabo and Moses for the quality info. It's good to know that if I decide to spend $1500 on coffee making paraphanalia (rather than say, torsion bars, bushings, and tires), I'm not totally wasting my money on a pretty badge on the front of the machine (like I sometimes feel like I did with the car).

dmoolenaar, that's quite an explanation. It has a ring of truth, but being a nuclear engineer, I've pulled off better stories in front of people who really should have known better. Something tells me if I decide to pass that along, I'm going to need a pretty good sized shovel ... :) In the meantime, I'll just keep dismantling and cleaning my espresso machine from time to time. :)


Dan

Jamaica Blue Mountain
CBTL (Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf) House Costa Rican Blend
Any Kenyan AA
Coffee People Black Tiger Espresso Blend

My faves, in no particular order.

For extra fun, brew with Crank2O. The coffee tastes about the same and it is absolutely D-E-A-D-L-Y. But if you gotta, you gotta. :D

Grinders -- a whirly-blade type grinder basically rips the beans apart, so some bits are ground to a dust while others are quite chunky. Fine for french press or filter, but for espresso you need very accurate control over the coarseness/fineness and consistency of the grind. In fact among the variables that are under your control to make the ultimate cup of espresso (bean type, freshness, degree of roast, pressure of water, temp of water, time of extraction, grind, tamping pressure, etc...) the grind is the one you fiddle with the most. Depending on ambient temp, humidity, how old the beans are, etc. you need to keep playing with the grind. So you need a burr type grinder. Either a flat plate type or conical type burr grinder is ok. The main difference is - not terribly important in the home environment - the flat plate burrs require changing every 100kg of beans, while the conical ones are good for 400kg or so. A cheap plastic bodum burr grinder is capable of decent grinds, but it can break down, will go out of tune, etc. In the high end grinders you are paying for quality materials, workmanship and increasingly, neat features. The mazzer, for example, is the only one that has a stepless-grind-adjustment feature, which is fantastic. Some have built it tampers, or automatic dosers.

Hey, has anyone heard of this insane coffee bean? Anyone willing to try it? Tabs? Is your fancy-schmancy machine worthy of this brew?

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/09/13/Consumers/catcoffee_020913

Re: Maybe the perfect cup of coffee...
 

:eek:
i agree with whoever said this is like pornography

Espresso kitchen bling!
 

I have a birthday coming up...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1079028899.jpg

We take our coffee seriously here! Outgrew Starbucks long ago, now have Peet's delivered every 2 weeks (no Peet's in Michigan :( ).

The Krups is the machine we have - grinds, steams, does it all.
The Meile built in is the one we want. Gotta love that friggin' cup warmer tray! If I could only stop spending $ on a certain car...

http://homepage.mac.com/jrundell/.Pi...sc/coffee1.gif

http://homepage.mac.com/jrundell/.Pi...sc/coffee2.jpg

WAIT WAIT WAIT, you have Peets delivered? How?