Terrific quote about agnostics

[joeclarke]

Somewhere in one of these topical threads a digression into the efficacy of various belief (or non-belief) systems took place. It brought to mind a quotation that had stuck in mind from some recreational reading.

You know, every once in a while you stumble on a gem that sticks with you for whatever reason. I usually find these little jewels in works of fiction more often than not. Took me a while to remember where I had found it, but here it is:

"I'll be honest about it. It is not atheists who get stuck in my craw, but agnostics. Doubt is useful for a while. We must all pass through the garden of Gethsemane. If Christ played with doubt, so must we. If Christ spent an anguished night in prayer, if He burst out from the Cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" then surely we are also permitted doubt. But we must move on. To doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation."

Yann Martel writing in Life of Pi - Man Booker Prize winner. Yann is a younger writer and hails from Spain.

It references Christ, but it clearly transcends Christianity, no?

I enjoy the tidy symmetry of that quotation. But even better is how it takes me somewhere that I wouldn't have expected I could be dragged let alone willingly walked. It's great when someone skilled with words can so easily upset your apple cart.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I'm neither atheist nor agnostic. I'm Idon'tgiveacrapistic. I have more important things going on in my life than to ponder whether some mythical higher power exists (or doesn't) and what form he/she takes.

Let others do whatever they want, worship however they want, etc. It's none of your or my damn business unless they start harming others or use their religion to perpetuate the notion that it is ok to harm others.

[island911]

"little jewels " (?) . . ."tidy symmetry " (?) . .. .WTF are you smoking?

[joeclarke]

Don't make me come over there and hug you guys over and over again!

Damn, this isn't the Women's Weekly Book Forum is it?

Crap - I hate it when I get these damn shortcuts and nom-de-plumes screwed up.

[Superman]

I like it, Joe. Its' part of the old "Jesus was either the Son of God, or He was a raving lunatic, but don't try to tell me He was just a great prophet" argument. Believe, or don't. Bet hedging is not allowed. that's not one of the options he apprently deliberatly left for us.

[island911]

No, really, just how is this quote a "little jewel" with "tidy symmetry "?

Maybe a "little jewel" with "tidy symmetry" of double-speak. (?)

Or maybe you're telling us your "little jewels have "tidy symmetry" (?)

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by island911
Or maybe you're telling us your "little jewels have "tidy symmetry" (?)

That would hurt. They hang at different levels so you don't crush 'em when you walk.

[island911]

Yeah, blue, but if they're little . ..

[yellow911turbo]

Is this an attempt to start an argument... if it is, I want in. I wanted to make sure before I say anything. haha

Cheers,
Serge

Mongo likes candy......

[djmcmath]

Joe, I have to agree with you. I'll need to set down my six-guns and lay aside my bankrupt pseudo-morality to do that, though. I do prefer people who have chosen a real side, who have stepped off the fence, who have made up their mind. Compromise is great, and it definitely has its place, but sometimes you just need to take a stand.

Dan

[island911]

Originally posted by djmcmath
". . . I do prefer people who have chosen a real side. . .

A real side!? . . ..ya mean like;
"The Force or the Darkside" ?


. . . good-guy in white, bad-guy in black (making the issue simply Black & White)

So tell me, why is it you feel the need to divide peoples?

I have a lot of respect for agnostics. They are, at least, not so arrogant to claim they know all about things beyond human grasp.

So tell me again how that is a "Compromise" . .. or lacking to take a stand?

Perhaps youre saying "lacking understanding, make something up, and stick with it to the bitter end" (?)

[Overpaid Slacker]

Neat quote. I don't know if it'll "stick" with me, but now I know where to find it if I need it.

JP

[djmcmath]

LOL -- You do not know the power of the Dark Side! Should have said "I prefer people who have really chosen a side." My bad.

Not all issues are black and white. Not even black and white photography, ironically. Whether or not god exists is, I think, and it makes a difference. Island, do you believe that truth is unknowable? Is there truth? Are there any objective standards? Are there eternal consequences for our temporal actions? Is there such a thing as perfection?

Oh, and by labeling people as "agnostic," we've just divided them into their own special little group. Love the irony.

I should clarify -- classically, agnostics believed that truth was unknowable. God, if he exists, is totally separate from our world. There is no evidence of God here, and nothing we do has any effect on him, if he exists at all. As far as anything is really concerned, this position is essentially atheism, except that god may exist. This is an actual philosophic position, and is a well-thought out, carefully reasoned approach. But I don't meet those agnostics. I meet the agnostics who say "I don't really know, I don't care, it doesn't matter that much." That's not a carefully reasoned philosophy, that's plain laziness.


So to rephrase your last, "Lacking the industrious nature to do the research required to make an educated decision, pick somewhere in the middle that won't raise anybody's ire, then hedge your bets and waffle around on it."

Island -- I always love your posts. You take my simple words and make really great arguments out of them. You really force me to be precise in my writing. Good work.


Dan

[Superman]

Glenn, I am a classic example of a person who sees nearly everything in various shades of grey. My BS is in Philosophy. My most common answer to questions is: "It depends."

(Interestingly I was once scoring some Lichert scale surveys and noticed a couple of subject who never chose any response except "1" (Strongly disagree) or "7" (strongly agree). I showed them to my professor. He casually said "Oh, those would be engineers." I checked, and he was correct.)

At any rate, there is at least one question that does not allow a "maybe," and this is that question.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally posted by djmcmath
I meet the agnostics who say "I don't really know, I don't care, it doesn't matter that much." That's not a carefully reasoned philosophy, that's plain laziness.

So let me get this straight. I work a 60-80 hour week as an engineer, read 1-2 books a week, maintain a 1 acre homestead fighting weeds, dust, and drought, provide foster care services for homeless pets, and I'm lazy???

So by your standards if I sit around all day doing nothing but pondering the possible existence of some super-being that will have no bearing on my life anyway, I'm not lazy?

Take a hike, buddy.

[john70t]

Sorry to disagree Joe.
"To doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immobility as a means of transportation" says to me that those who aren't sure about a situation are cowards to act on anything.

Some agostics act on the best info they have at the time, and regect responce-retoric that's been pummeled into their brain for decades, because.... one response does not satisfy every situation.

As a counterpoint to religeon, I could point out many "un-Christian" actions these days and hammer again-and-again on the fact that the sacred rules of conduct from the Bible et. all have broken, but that is not necessary.

Just because one doesn't act, doesn't mean one doesn't aknowledge or comprehend.
I don't pretend that I understand the-concept-that-is-God better than anyone else. I also reject as manipulators and inbiciles those who claim such.

The universe was created/developed/whatever by a power. Us humans have only recently begun to glimpse a very small part of that power-we've had electricity for what, a hundred years? Nuclear knowledge for 60 years? Instant global communication for mabye 20?
What is the next fabric of existence to be discovered? This existence was created by.. and is a part of God, correct?

I think the Buddhist connection of matter/energy/thought being one will prove true.
-energy can be changed and stored in many forms:electrical, light, sound, chemical etc...
-the brain is an electrical battery/computer.
-the endocrine system is only for creating an enviroment for those electrical pulses to move our muscles and create "thought" within the gray matter of the skull.
-around every current/voltage is a magnetic field with the reverse true as well.
-electric eels have the ability to stun other fish with the power of their magnectic fields, why wouldn't the Chinese "Chi" concept be the same?
(Hmm, funny how those ancient concepts of eating willow bark or applying leaches are proving themselves medically sound?)

Being Agnostic doesn't mean one doesn't believe in God/Allah/Jehova/yourlabelhere, it only means that your as much a fool as I.

[island911]

Originally posted by djmcmath
. . .I should clarify -- . . . . I meet the agnostics who say "I don't really know, I don't care, it doesn't matter that much." That's not a carefully reasoned philosophy, that's plain laziness.

. . .

Ah, okay. . .then let's go there.

Are you so certain that it is "plain laziness" that keeps some from considering the existence of a deity.

Consider the Taoist. The concept of a personified deity is foreign to them, as is the concept of the creation of the universe. What is, is . . . They 'go with the flow' so to speak. . . .as do most living entities (lazy?) on this planet.

Originally posted by Superman
. . ..
At any rate, there is at least one question that does not allow a "maybe," and this is that question.

Is that because you're afraid of getting it wrong?

Originally posted by Superman
My BS is in Philosophy.

that's why we like you so much. I can't stand those who BS in sales.

[djmcmath]

Originally posted by BlueSkyJaunte
So by your standards if I sit around all day doing nothing but pondering the possible existence of some super-being that will have no bearing on my life anyway, I'm not lazy?

Take a hike, buddy.

Easy, killer. Perhaps "lazy" wasn't the right word. I'm open to suggestions for a better one. Industrious towards your work, your life, your family, etc., is definitely a plus, and does not qualify you for "lazy" in those areas. However, if you, for example, do not get involved politically, do not research the various options, then vote in an educated fashion, you are by all accounts "lazy," politically. You have shirked your political responsibility (at least in this country -- some would argue we'd be better off under a tyranny, I'm sure). Similarly, if you do not research, get involved, and make an educated decision with regards to some basics of philosophy, then yes, you are "philosophically lazy."

Dan

[djmcmath]

Originally posted by island911
that's why we like you so much. I can't stand those who BS in sales.

Gosh, I BS in pretty much any conversation I have time for...


Dan