"Hydrogen Highway"...Go Arnold!

[RickM]

Since the only Hydrogen pumping station is at Munich airport this is a great first step.

Quote:

"Schwarzenegger promises California 'Hydrogen Highway' by 2010


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Associated Press

April 20, 2004 | DAVIS, Calif. --

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger signed an order Tuesday for California to have a network of stations offering the pollution-free hydrogen fuel up and down the state within six years.

Schwarzenegger signed the order after driving around a university campus in a Toyota Highlander propelled by a clean-burning hydrogen engine. The University of California at Davis is the site for one of America's most advanced centers for the study of alternative transportation systems."

[motion]

We need more politicians unafraid to make bold moves like this. Excellent!!

[RickM]

That's what I think. It kills me that the HUGE profit potential is so untapped.

We absolutely can overcome some of the technological hurdles that are holding us back. Is this area largely ignored or is there more R & D behind the scenes than I'm aware of?

[RickM]

.

[Moses]

Anyone else out there becoming more and more impressed by the Governator?

I've heard that when discussions start to become partisan, with finger pointing and party-line rhetoric, he shuts it down. Won't tolerate the traditional postures of both parties. Seems like an apolitical pragmatist. I think I may like this governor.

[RickM]

Maybe we can get Jean Claude Van Damme (sp) here in NJ

Seriously, I like what I hear about Arnold as well.

[nostatic]

if he comes out next and pushes solar and decentralized mesh networks for cellular, I'll work for his reelection campaign...

[304065]

[Rot 911]

John, you worry me!

[Hugh R]

The hydrogen economy doesn't really work unless your willing to go to nuclear power plants. Otherwise, you have to use petroleum (oil, coal, gas) or hydro to make the hydrogen, and you get less energy in the end. I suppose you could use solar or wind, but you need lots of those types of power generators to make a little hydrogen.

[RickM]

Hugh, You seem to have much more knowledge of the Hydrogen production technologies than I. However, that is where I see competition coming into play. We need to get past current issues and nothing will push it faster and farther. After all this is by far the most abundant element in existence.

(I'm also realistic as I reflect on how battery technology has crawled at a pace that surprises me)

[Hugh R]

My dad was a nuclear physist at MIT and very big in the nuclear/hydrogen technology. His point about nukes was if you don't want nukes, what do you want? While conservation, is certainly good, and relying on a variety of energy is also good, wind turbines won't power a steel mill. Also, conversion of one form of energy to another is a net loss. As a simple example, if you used a gallon of gasoline to run electricity through water to generate the hydrogen (and oxygen) you'll get an amount of hydrogen (in BTUs) which would have less than a gallons worth BTUs in the original gallon of gasoline, i.e., you can't create more energy than you use. The same can be said for flowing natural gas through a fuel cell to convert it to hydrogen, you have a net loss of BTUs.

[RickM]

Apparently there are a few methods for isolating Hydrogen....interesting stuff.

Quote:

"In the laboratory, small amounts of hydrogen gas may be made by the reaction of calcium hydride with water.

CaH2 + 2H2O Ca(OH)2 + 2H2

This is quite efficient in the sense that 50% of the hydrogen produced comes form water. Another very convenient laboratory scale experiment follows Boyle's early synthesis, the reaction of iron filings with dilute sulphuric acid.

Fe + H2SO4 FeSO4 + H2

There are many industrial methods for the production of hydrogen and that used will depend upon local factors such as the quantity required and the raw materials to hand. Two processes in use involve heating coke with steam in the water gas shift reaction or hydrocarbons such as methane with steam.

CH4 + H2O (1100°C) CO + 3H2

C(coke) + H2O (1000°C) CO + H2

In both these cases, further hydrogen may be made by passing the CO and steam over hot (400°C) iron oxide or cobalt oxide.

CO + H2O CO2 + H2"

[motion]

Damn, Rick. An hour ago you didn't even know how to spell hydrogen. Now look at this $hit!!!

[RickM]

Richard, It's all about perfecting technique. Like isolating panties from female owner....

I was hoping to lure Todd into this discussion. That's when the chemistry fireworks start.

(Apologies to sensitive female Pelicanites ;-) )


BTW, time for a Scotch and a cigar....see ya'll tomorrow......

[304065]

Ja, ve vill all use Hydrogen, it is plentiful!

[JTO]

Rick,

I need to chime in. Hugh hits the whole hydrogen-as-fuel debate on the head. None of the chemical formulas you showed mean a damn because the reactants and/or chemical reactions all require a lot of energy to make, or make go. Calcium hydride is a highly reactive compound that doesn't just exist in a rock or something. You have to make it by putting energy into the system (a pile of reactants).

Hydrogen is a neat fuel but if you combust it in air you get NOx, AKA, smog. The only way hydrogen is pollution free in a combustion process is if you also use compressed oxygen to oxidize the hydrogen (or burn). This way, water comes out the tailpipe. Producing compressed oxygen and compressed or liquified hydrogen is damn expensive. With a couple hunderd nuclear reactors, maybe we could have a hydrogen-fueled transportation system. Without that large supply of cheap electricity, we would end up losing ground in terms of energy available. We'd be using much of what we have to split water.

Biofuels, to my mind, are the way to go. No new distribution system, enzymatic systems for ethyl alcohol production are extremely low energy users, plenty of feed stock from agricultural and forest products waste.

My $0.02.
Troy

[vash]

arnold drives a hummer! you think his A$$ gives a crap about the enviornment? maybe if he can get new voters. i think it would be easier to MAKE everyone damn one of us use compact fluoresenct bulbs. hell, pass a bill that makes a standard incandesent bulb cost $10. that would friggen clean a whole lot of enviornmental crap up.

you guys ever read that book, ecology of commerce. by stephan hawkings? i think that is the name, let me look it up before i give out bad info.

[vash]

opps paul hawkins.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Decology%252520of%252520commerce/103-8442540-1441405

hell of a book. he talks about "true cost" of an item. like the light bulb. he thinks it is wrong that a incandesent is cheaper than a compact fluor, because the ALL the cost are not associated correctly. i think that is the damn case with the hydrogen car. it reminds me of the SF city buses that advertise ZERO EMMISSION VEHICLE because it runs on electricity. what about the powerplant cranking out the juice? isnt there bad byproducts at that level?

[singpilot]

Most people in San Francisco think electricity comes from moonbeams.