Hey, I apologize for sounding testy or pedantic in the above post. And I regret especially the potentially disrespectful remarks, Lendaddy and others. So, please accept my apology. And please also be aware that I also do not appreciate being treated as though my observation are wildly detached from reality. Give me a break, lendaddy. I guess I'm hoping that folks here, while they may disagree with my conclusions, at least recognize that I am speaking from some level of experience, and that maybe, just maybe I have a point worth considering. If that is the case, then pretending Superman is from outer space would not impress the folks who know I live on Earth. I'm not really Superman, but I do understand some things about government. If one of us is detached from reality, lendaddy..........

Superman, I'm not sure I understand your post. Well, I do in some ways. First, you say government employees are underpaid and underappreciated. Then, you say government organizations are underfunded and therefore get the job/mandates done barely, or poorly. So if the employees are unsung heros, why is the job barely done or not at all?

The citizens do not have the inside info on the running of the government, but we aren't stupid. In the city of Memphis, TN, the Memphis City Schools get $3 for every $1 spent in the Shelby County Schools (there are two school systems in the county). Yet, the Memphis City Schools are some of the worst in the nation, while the Shelby Country schools are still decent. Shelby County is now in massive debt. Inside Memphis, population growth is stagnant or decreasing. There is no need for new schools. In Shelby County (outside Memphis City limits), there is huge growth, and a massive need for new schools. However, under the mandates, for every $1 borrowed to build a new school in Shelby County, the Memphis City Schools get $3. Now, if Memphis City Schools are building NO new schools, what the Hades are they doing with the money? Mind you, the Memphis City Schools were without air conditioning for most of the 1980s and into the 1990s. Where is all that money? I think this is a legitimate beef. If you can't trust legislators/administrators to handle the schools, when can you trust them?

I think the answer is in Shelby County Schools you have good management of resources along with teachers who care. In Memphis, you have corruption, gross waste, and anarchy. Unfortunately, the Shelby County Schools suffer through less funding in order to support their corrupt sibling. Very sad...

Well thank goodness you are out (?) of that system then. I can tell you that if you are anywhere near a motivated and compassionate educator the last thing teaching is, is boring and repititious.

The easiest thing for me, and the most rewarding as a teacher, is being innovative, creative and enthusiatic about meeting the needs of the kids that come thru the school gates everyday.

The hardest thing...dealing with parents who can't put the effort into their own kids and leave it all up to schools and society to do the rearing.

While many of you knock the government worker, I think you need to come to grips with what Sup. is suggesting. If I might be so bold...its the system which is creating the problems not the workers. The system includes everyone who interacts with it, regardless of whether you're a provider or user of the system.

You know its the nurses, teachers, social workers, allied health workers and clergy who are supporting the DAILY ills of the socciety that all of you are in and create. Sure there are bad eggs, as I have stated before, in private industry too. I think every gov. worker sees on a daily basis, peers who just don't tow the line. That however is not unique to gov. 'enterprise'.

Anyhow, I gotta go prepare another boring, repititive days lessons so I can screw with everyone's kids minds. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hey ex, you misunderstood; I was searching for something trivial to complain about. Most jobs have rpetition. If that is the biggest problem one has, then I would say they've got it good.

So, don't worry, my students get some creative and enthusiatic explainations. . . as tough as that may be for you to believe. :cool:

actually, as a slave laborer for the public sector, i actually dont think me and my co-workers are underpaid or underappreciated. (collective GASP!) the problem is that all public entities, have a different work ethic. chime in all you others that work for the gov. there is about 40% of the staff busting their A$$es everyday. (please refer to my nightshift thread) and the rest of us are a bunch of lazy mothereffers! i have some people in my office that dont do crap. daytraders, doing side jobs, etc. and if there was a layoff, and up until a few weeks ago, there was one, it would be the newest labor let go. not the lamest. go pay your property taxes in person at the tax office and you will see this firsthand (or the DMV). so the way i see it, the low pay is created by this cancerous group of bastards making us all look bad. personally i can deal with my low pay. give me a raise, and all of us HAVE to get one too. i am just trying to learn something so i can bail. see ya.

oh yea, in my mind, the football player turned war hero? he is the same hero as the rest of the soldiers giving it up for our president orders. it is just that his is the more obvious "poor career choice".

I agree with you 100% unfixed. There are a lot of guys and gals busting their chops for very little reward. They happen to be overshadowed by the pathetic-excuse-for-a-human-being slugs who do nothing. Case in point: when I go to the local city hall to have utilities turned on, the ladies are an absolute joy. They are friendly, curtious, and they get the utilities turned on before I can even drive out to meet the meter guy. Last year, property taxes were hiked on my rentals by about 70%. I'm not complaining one bit. Good service justifies a good price.

Now, instead of feeding the leaches, why not fire the lazy bums, and give all the good employees a BIG EFFING raise. Whatcha think, unfixed? Could you use a payraise of say 20-30% along with some co-workers that work for a change? Reduce the workforce and increase the pay of those who tow the line.

In my book, Tillman is a real hero. He shunned what virtually every American wants-fame and money. He made the ultimate sacrifice for his country. He's more man than I'll ever be.

turbo, your last sentence changed my mind. tillman is not selfish...AT ALL. his poor parents should be proud.

I spent 26 years in the military....I always figured under the volunteer system...the first 4 years was my patriotic duty. After that, even though still patriotic... I had a family to feed. I needed reasonable pay and benefits to stay. Unlike Tilman, I left a low paying, dead-end job to join the service. I honestly don't know if I could have left the big bucks behind like he did. I doubt it.

The other GIs are heros in my book too. Contrast them to the guys who draw that military, guard, or reserve salary and then cry like babies when asked to go to a real shooting war and do what they were trained for. You would be surprised how smart and talented many are. Service is not necessarily a poor career choice..although a fairly low paying one.

By the way, we have had guys doing dangerous jobs, getting shot at, and even killed throughout the cold war....keeping this country safe and free. They just were not allowed to talk about their exploits or get medals....their work will always be unknown and unappreciated.

not just military jobs are scary. i watch contractors work next to crazy live traffic lanes everyday. that is crazy! if i have to measure something or answer a question, i run, look, measure, go back to somewhere safe, pull out the plans and then do what i get paid for.

i always wondered what my life would be like if i went the route of the US military. i missed out on a good thing once, but nothing i like to dwell on. that is my mom's job. i still hear it from her. but i bet seeing this war changed her mind. i cant wait until this is over.

Superman,

First, no names were used(unless you are opposed to "government lover":), which was an attempt at humor)

Second, I don't think you're an idiot, I do think that you are the one who has been indoctrinated, yes, I think you have the blinders on.

Third, and perhaps to make point two, your first paragraph example makes little sense to me. You claim you did not have enough support staff to properly analyze prevailing wages? Then you assume that this always leads to increased costs? If you don't know if you're right or wrong, how would you know if you're high or low????

I am sure you'll refer to me as naive here but why should the state even be involved in such things?? The state feels contractor employees should make a different amount when working on government contracts than private ones? The way I see it, your state created a problem that didn't exist, then underfunded it's solution center.. Classic:) In the "real world" these jobs would just go out for bid and the best value would win, but I guess that would be to simple.

In other words, I'm not expecting any calls from GM telling that when we I run c-body door pillars next Wednesday I need to be sure to pay my guys $18.50 an hour cause they have decided that's what the labor should command from my business. Why do you think this NEVER happens in the real world? The premise, to me, is asinine. You're saying your department was underfunded and therefore unable to properly perform it's function, where as I am saying perhaps the department has no reason to exist.

Since it was obviously not to save money, what was the point of this position? I am guessing to ensure "fairness" to the workers. A slap in the face to employers by basically saying they otherwise are not.

BTW, I think you take me more venemous than I really am, I just like a spirited debate.:)

Fair 'nuff, Lendaddy. Yesterday I was stressed. Thx for the reply. Let me offer this:

PW law exists, not so much to protect workers as to protect local contractors. States are not permitted to restrain interstate trade, but PW laws are acceptable. Senators Davis and Bacon were responding to a situation where their highway money was taken by an out-of-state contractor, along with jobs, etc. The contractor imported the labor.

If PW rates are set low, or mid-level large, efficient local contractors lose, and the law gets repealed. Those large contractors pay high wages (due to market, rather than regulatory, forces), and a mid or low PW places them at a bid disadvantage compared to their smaller and lower-wage competitors. Further, it is the large, efficient contractors who build the best roads. In most countries the lowest bidder is NOT selected. Since we are focused on this lowest-bidder thing, we use PW regulation to level the playing field. In this way, differences in bids reflect differences in efficiencies (how to "run the job"), which is exactly the competition you want to see. I expect Unfixed to chime in here with vigorous support since he administers these contracts. And finally, government buys one fifth of all construction services, and those contracts are, hands down, the largest contracts in the market. In the absence of PW regulation, contractors would do their best to drive wages down, including import of cheap labor. Don't suggest they won't. They do. And this depressed local wages and puts pressure on local public assistance programs. Very costly for the state.

When I made prevailing wages, I knew they were flexible downward for two reasons:

1. Ties always went to the high wage. If I had an option, I went for the high wages, largely because of the principles above, and party for the politics. This is compex and I won't waste room here with further explanation.

2. If I had had the survey resources, I could have collected more data. The unions were very good at making sure I received ALL union hours and wages. So, all additional data I might have collected would have been non-union and lower wages. Non-union companies were not good at responding but again, any additional resources for surveys and I could have reached that data. So, the players in the survet game (unions, union contractors, non-union contractors) conspired in a way to maximize wages.

There is no doubt in my mind that some reasonable survey resources would have cause better "estimation" of local wages. PW rates would fall. Unions and union contractors would stop supporting the law since PW rates would be putting them at a competitive disadvantage (see above), and the law would finally be ripe for the repeal that the non-union sector so desperately hopes for. You know why they are not going to do that? You know why they don't see this opportunity? Because they are still using their favorite weapon. They underfund programs they don't like. It's a complex game, with what appears to be Simpletons at the helm.

Turbo, good question. Check it out. Your question has an answer, I just don't know what it is. You can find out where the money goes. It's your money. Write public record request letters to Superintendents or higher, and 'cc' everyone you can think of.

i work for a public agency, I am paid fair, I work hard (most days), and unfixed is right about some do, some don't when it comes to effort in the work place. its all about how much you as the employee feel you can get away with, or get away with not doing. thing is the people in charge of my dept. know whos working and whos not, it just can they do anything to address it? not without putting more on thier own plate to deal with the problem.

this has really grown legs and spun out of control since super's open, i dont think he wanted to go this way. i do thank him for giving us on the public trough our proppers.

k911sc, you hit it on the head! supervisor would rather ignore the lazybastards and just find it easier to hand more crapola to the worker bees. which, in reality rewards the idiots. kinda a *****ed up system if you ask me. damn SUPE, look what you started. i hate my job!:)

cliff you have a PM. my tardy reply from your drive organization note.