That would all be wonderful, Island, if anything about the Iraqi invasion and occupation was making anyone in the world safer. It is definitely doing the opposite. If I had to sit in a room w/ a notebook and dream up a worse foreign or domestic policy than Bush and Co., I think that I would be at a loss. Just when you think that the international situation couldn't get any worse, that the Arab world could not hate us any more, Bush pulls another miracle out of his ass like the latest prison torture scandal. ANd make no mistake about it, this kind of ***** flows downstream from the top only, the buck truly stops at his desk when it comes to the military culture that allows for "softening up" these "terrorists", (that he has created), before the spooks can find time to interogate them.

The spooks will never find the time to interogate most of them, there are just too damn many and most are midget-profile targets, just mule cart drivers who were in the wrong place (Iraq) at the wrong time or gave some Humvee the finger. Yes, I know that there are real killers over there, but 90% of the poor bastards in Abu Ghirab are just peons.

At least you didn't tell us that $192B is what the U.S. will lose in car accidents this year anyways. :rolleyes:

Hey, it's not all a total loss, oil company profits are going to set boffo records this year! Off the friggin' charts! Now of course this is all just a function of supply and demand, but Bush, that crafty fox, has affected supply to the tune of millions, (billions?), of gallons of diesel and jet fuel for Operation Desert "fool me once", (and you're paying for this fuel directly to Halliburton, so it's all good), coupled w/ the disruption of Iraqi oil and other factors beyond our control, so the lesson is: (drumroll): Oil Executives make darn good public policy! Who'd of thunk? :cool:

Yeah, some already posted the cost of a building in NY.

The thing is you have to have perspective on these things. Otherwise you are simply claiming "cost is bad."

The mid east population has been brought up. . taught to hate US. Around 9/11 they didn't have any respect for US. THAT situation is changing.

Oh, please...not the WMD argument again. Not the "bankrolling suicide bombers" crap. Saddam's incarcerated. There never were WMDs. Is this where your insistence that our country get thrown into debt comes from? I'm glad you think in Bush's frame of mind ("frame" and "mind" used loosely, of course) - he needs all the support he can get; because there are some hardened GOP boys who are beginning to have serious doubts about any reason to spend our country into an economic black hole over phantoms our meglomaniac cowboy president has allowed himself to be haunted by via the dream team of Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice.

Here's a bulletin for you: we're so hated right now in the Middle East, I don't think "U.S. democracy" has a better equivalent for itself in the Arab World than the word "lies." That's a lot of value for what will soon be $225 billion.

Bush legacy: yes, he'll leave an enormous deficit, the history of an ill-founded crusade and worldwide hatred of us, our children and our grandchildren.

But that's better than one debt; heck, that's three debts.

Island, do you seriously think that anyone in the Mideast has more respect for us now?

That would be an interesting take on things, that's for sure.

Abdul: "You know, I use to think that the U.S. was just a bunch of punks when Clinton was prez, but that Bush is KAR-azy! He really showed those Iraqis 'what for', I've cancelled all plans to blow myself up from now on. There is no telling who he might invade next. If he's re-appointed that is".

Habib: "Word".

Yeah, since when?

Since we retreated from Fallujah? Since we installed the same criminals into Fallujah who we vowed to take out when we invaded Iraq? Since five or six soldiers who represent anything that Iraq knows about the United States humiliated countless prisoners?

That's how you garner respect? :rolleyes:

I think Island is correct. We will find the world is safer and the federal debt worries are unfounded by the end of the President's second term. The same scare tactics were used during the Reagan presidency and history tells us that they were wrong. The Soviets didn't nuke us and the debt was paid off in less than 10 years...and not by our grandchildren.

Geeze, David. . .are you done now?

"There never were WMDs." really? . . how do you know that? It seems th UN was in complete agreement that WMD were there. . .a few thousand dead Kurds also would tell you . .. haven't we had this conversation before?


Anyway, hell yes they have more respect for US. (before one of you equivocates on the word "respect" I mean Respect, as in the "Rock-climbing- you had better have respect for gravity" way.

Feeling a bit abused? :(

I know as well that there weren't WMDs as you know there were - so it's a draw. But are draws worth over 750 lives and countless billions of dollars - no, any reasonably thinking person would not think so.

Oh, and no, I can't find an equivalent to respect for climbing a rock or "rock climbing;" not when we've effectively fallen off the rock.

Fint, "President's second term"? I know that you're kidding, but don't even joke about that. I mean hey, fun is fun but let's not laugh ourselves to death here, as my old man used to say. ;)

I predict that Bush would be impeached immediately if somehow he weasels his ass back in this fall, and how would he do that? I mean, Nader ain't gonna pull votes again and Bush doesn't have a brother who is governor of more than one state, does he? :eek:

Either way, I see Bush being tried, maybe in absentia, as a war criminal in the foreseeable future. He will make history completely forget the crimes of Nixon and Reagan's cabinet, including Bush the elder. Worst monster of the modern era, starter of WW3, etc.... :cool:

:D ha. speeder, I'm so glad someone on the left has kept a sense of humor. (someone other than Kerrys hair stylist, that is.) :cool:

Yes, but Russia was a tangible "enemy" and the cold war put Russia into more of an economic tailspin than us - we didn't have it nearly as bad.

This scenario is different: we're throwing billions at literally nothing. Or in another vein, terrorism isn't a country.

Yeah, and you can't count on another tech stock boom and a president as great as Clinton to turn this ***** around, ain't gonna happen. Dream on, Fintstone. ;)

Reminds me of a bumper sticker in Texas in the '80s, "Dear God, please send another oil boom. I promise not to piss it all away this time". :cool:

There is another oil boom it's called $40 a Barrel...and so what if the oil companies are making bookuu panango....

So what if we have lost 750 American Lives, have the WHOLE WORLD hate us...hey you know what... now you boyz know what it's like to be me... anyway this not about me...So what if it cost 1 Trillion dollars...So what if we are losing our civil rights, so what if Bush is helping out his cronies and on and on...I could give you the wonderfull platitude that the cost of freedom isn't cheap.

But the fact is that none of us can change a dam thing..we have bought this E ticket ride for better or worser...whether you like it or support it or not.

As somebody who actually does estimating for the governement, I will tell you that it is IMPOSSIBLE to come up with a final price for ANY kind of military action. The number of variables that can affect your pricing model is insanely long and subject to constant change.

You have a highly volitile environment and even your most sophisticated stochastic modeling will fall short. This won't be the last request for funds so just get used to it.

Sorry Flintstone, but that would be revisionist history. The Soviets just beat us to bankruptcy. You may recall that it was "The Economy, Stupid" That befell Bush #1. It was the Clinton era that turned the economy around in less than 10 years, while a Republican Congress kicked and screamed the whole way. Now under Bush #2, another destroyed economy.


Island911 wrote....
"There never were WMDs." really? . . how do you know that? It seems th UN was in complete agreement that WMD were there. . .a few thousand dead Kurds also would tell you . .. haven't we had this conversation before?

Well Island, those dead Kurds would tell you that Saddam gased them in the late '80's while we stood by and did
nothing. Remember Island, the Gulf War was over Kuwait and Oil, not the Kurds. WE left Saddam in place, and he punked the Kurds again, while we watched.

Bush and Cheney were so busy dreaming this war up pre 9/11 that they slept through warnings of true terror threat. Stop trying to tie the two together. It is not a valid argument. We would be in this mess (Iraq) 9/11 or not. Your safety has nothing to do with it .

Staylo: re: the 'slept through warnings' part --

Time Mag reports that President Bush told the 9/11 Commission that "Clinton 'probably mentioned' terrorism as a national-security threat 'but did not make it a point of emphasis.' Clinton earlier told the panel that he had ranked bin Laden as the No. 1 problem the new Administration would face."

Well, he talked about *so many things*, it probably made GW dizzy. I mean, the guy doesn't like to read, anyway.

And how do you know there were? Really; how do you know? Is there any proof? No. Were any WMDs found? No.
Face the facts: it was a poor argument from the get go - one of many - for this war.

C'mon Island, show us that proof.

dd74: There were some WMDs back in the 90s. The U.S. *gave* them to Saddam.

But he used 'em (mostly on the Kurds) over 10 years ago. I think a lot of conservatives' clocks just stopped.

In the Gulf War, facilities with potential for chemical & biological weapons creation were a key target.

Saddam had no capabilities for WMDs by 1992.

In fact, even GW now claims we attacked because he had "programs to develop" WMDs, not WMDs. Where's the imminent threat of a "program"? Oh, that's right, by hook or crook, we're there now and to call it good and done would allow the Cons to invoke their favorite phrase of the day 'cut and run'.

You want me to post the pictures of the gassed Kurds? Cmon guys, you deny this happened?