The Ultimate Solution
 

Okay, this has been percolating under the surface. Let's get it out in the open.

Don't ask, don't tell. Clinton was such a visionary.

What are you trying to tell us techweenie?

In case you hadn't noticed, nobody can tell you anything.

If only it was as simple as the options you provide.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell any of the three options you list will happen, so I can't even vote on this with any seriousness.

If we nuke them, it'll be like nuking ourselves. The entire planet will shun us and we might as well commit mass genocide on ourselves.

Oil? Of course, but no one's going to admit to that. :rolleyes:

I figure we'll be there for a good ten years at least after any sort of government will be established that even remotely resembles democracy.

You need to add in your poll, "nation building" or establishing democracy. It's a fair entry, and enough people believe that is the true reason we are in Iraq.

Otherwise your poll displays some pretty shallow liberal thinking, and is completely and unfairly partisan.

My vote is to pack up our stuff and come home. Staying any longer isn't going to accomplish squat, other than more casualties.

"...your poll displays some pretty shallow liberal thinking..."

Darn, because I was hoping to relfect some shallow right wing thinking that's been expressed here and on talk radio.

If you will recall, when Bush campaigned, he particularly eschewed 'nation building' so that couldn't be an option... could it?

Yes, it is an option because he's establishing democracy under the guise of our country, and only now is begging the UN to take over what we obviously cannot properly execute - but while using the model he, and specifically Cheney and Rumsfeld have established.

Oh, and no need to play down to the shallow right wing, particularly on this board. You're better than that. They insult conscious thinking while imbibing in unconscious masturbation.

All we can do is get the hell out of there.This is a country of weak people that are willing to be lead by fools.When the people have had enough they will revolt on there own,in till then we are wasting time and lives.I honestly fell sorry for the masses but they have to do for them selfs.IMHO Randy

...What he said.

campbellcj: "My vote is to pack up our stuff and come home. Staying any longer isn't going to accomplish squat, other than more casualties."

Oddly enough, I heard this exact tactic espoused by a right-wing columnist yesterday. He argued that an essential element of establishing a nation is pride and that if the Iraqis could be made to believe they drove the U.S. out, they would build their own nation more quickly.

Wacky concept, I thought, especially since such a small minority there is fighting us, but if it saves American lives, I'm all for it.

Yup, just like we do with most of the world. 'Cept these guys have oil, which made their dictatorship a zillion times worse than the 1+02e dictators around the world. If it weren't for the oil, we'd just let 'em fight it out like a couple of mangy mutts.

I don't care if it is perceived as win or lose.The past leadership had to go,SH was a threat to everyone. Most of the world was weak to make us do it ourself .But now it's time to go, I think that we are a better country to leave now with the statement having be made that "We don't care what you do inside your borders, just don't threaten the rest of us". Besides if they don't get there act together and live in the 21 century Iraq is nothing but a goldfish in a pool of sharks, other nations on there borders will absorb them. Maybe this is when they will ask for help. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Let,s get out of there intill we are ask back. IMHO Randy

I don't think any statement I've read on this board descibes it any better than that.

1st - We accomplished what we came to do, captured the dictator and his sons
2nd - Help them (Iraq)in echange for oil to built their infrastructure with a clause that says they must have a legal democracy in place in order to receive any help.
3rd - Do MAJOR public relations help throghout the world to rebuild confindence in America's over all goal of providing safety and suporting Human Rights.
4th - Pick a smaller country with less political issues, help them get our of poverty, rebuild their infrastructure and raise them to point that we can say "This is what we can do for your country if you follow our plan"
5th - Focus more on our own nation, bring us closer and help us understand eachother issues so we can all get passed these issues that devide us.

If get attacked once more by terrorist - pick a small island, capture as many terrorist as possible, put all of them on the island and drop the Nuke on them. (let them burn alive and distribute the video world wide)

bigrubberjeeb, I agree with half of of what you say and wish the other half could be made true. As for the terrorist, crush them like the vermen they are. Take them out in mass and if they are hiding with the inecents,this a case of you lose becase you were willing to be in bad company. IMHO Randy

That is a tough point to argue against. Especially when the "innocent" are group-cheering the murder of an American citizen. (just like 9/11)

BRJ
We have had the perfect opportunity to do this in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, our Government has shown how much they really care about this model by grossly under-manning and under-funding the effort by moving on and siphoning the funding to Iraq without finishing the job. The worst part is that this was the legitimate battlefront on terror, and we are largely ignoring it. Tribal factions are again the norm, the Taliban is reorganizing, the pleas of our hand picked Government are being ignored and promises of financial help are being reneged on. We are set to repeat the conditions of post-Soviet Afghanistan all over again. Only you history scholars out there will see the relevance there and understand it. (A model that would certainly apply to Iraq, were it not for the oil.)
I don't think we will have any credibility in the world until we can:
1. Change our leadership. Like it our not, does anyone really believe that GWB can actually change International sentiment, ever, at this point? Be objective now!
2. Demonstrate that we can follow through on our commitment to the war on terror by finishing the job, and dedicating the needed resources to stabilizing and rebuilding Afghanistan like we promised.
3. Dedicating the proper man power and resources to eliminate Al-Queada, the real enemy and terror threat. Finding Usama would be a nice start.
At this point, all are a huge roll of the dice. My bet is that #1 will have to happen before #2 & #3 are seriously considered.

IMHO, that removes them from the "Innocent" category.

Staylo: The problem with taking Bush out of the equation is Kerry himself. I still have not heard adequate plans from Kerry for either carrying on this war or scaling it back. In ways, Kerry is a larger problem than Bush because while he says there's a problem with the current administration, he offers no tangible solutions.

BRJ is on to something. If we were at all concerned with true nation building, we'd look into Sudan. It's got everything going for it and us in the way of making the U.S. look like superheroes.

1) The country is poor and starving.
2) It's being raped by Islamic fundamentalists.
3) To my knowledge it has no oil, though I could be wrong.

If we were to save a country like that, the world would love us.

This just shows, one needs to be prudent when selecting their crusades.

Why doesn't Iraq hold a vote that decided whether we stay or go? Set up booth on every corner and let the people decide. The news makes it seems like they want us to leave but I believe its a scewed view.

DD
My point is, why do we need to look any further than Afghanistan as a model. We supposedly started the job, why not finish it properly? Why couldn't that set an example in a key region that has needed stabilization for decades? No resources to be gained, and an honset good faith attempt to do the right thing. Or is that the problem?
As for Kerry, I can't really argue with you there except that American's themselves changing their leadership sends the world a message that we as a country really do care about these issues and want to do the right thing.
That could be achieved by Kerry or Carrotop, but not by Bush at this point. You love him or hate him, thats the way the world feels, not just us. Sad that it has come to that.

Seriously, since when are we "Nation Builders”? Why can't we concentrate on our own for a while and do something to curb the damage to our job market the evolution of our economy is having.

We should be concentrating on the home front and supporting the UN since we are to blame the most for its ineffectual existence. If we, the most powerful nation in the world ignore the UN (among other things we've started ignoring since GWB took office) who are we to cast stones if some other country like N. Korea ignores them as well?

Mikester: well put.

The notion that we are the 'biggest and baddest' and don't need the support or agreement of any other country may well result in us fighting wars on multiple fronts.

"Nuke 'em" is losing
 

Still, 42% say nuke 'em.

So future terrorists like these will never have a chance...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1084666871.jpg

Yeah, I agree with ya there. . .GW certainly has given those children a big sigh of relief. They just may have a reasonable future, yet.

Well, unless the muslim extremist get there way. . .then those girl will get to enjoy the status of uneducated "breeding stock" -wow, what a future. :rolleyes:

island911, I agree with you. They say over 85% of Afghanistan is still under local Taliban-like rule so the future for young girls there isn't too bright.

Let's hope our help nudges them forward.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with Randy Newman's early work.

He described this as "a pinhead's view of the world"

Political Science

by Randy Newman

No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paree
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now

After you heard the rest...hear the best...and now heres what Tabby says.....Process them all through interment camps...to the right give them a job cleaning up the place to the left a nice hot shower that refreshes....ahhhh