What is funny is how fast you are to believe the enemy over your own countrymen...First the witnesses said it was fighter planes...then helicopters, now AC 130s..next it will be submarines..and they saw them with their own eyes!!!LOL. Yep, our guys just crash weddings out of boredom and kill everyone there because they did not get an invitation. Give me a break. Of course, none of them were terrorists with guns and Syrian passports..the GIs must have planted those.
You know the terrorists set these things up just for folks like you who they know will believe anything bad they hear about their country...regardless of proof.

The French did very little to help us in the Revolutionary War..we were merely enemy of their enemy...we have repaid them many times over..yet they supported Saddam's regime against us for a few measly dollars of oil money....Let them eat cheese!

The State Department had to approve the shipment of biowar materials to Iraq.

http://www.sundayherald.com/27572
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-09-30-iraq-ushelp_x.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/021001-iraq3.htm
http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/iraqgermsusfrance.html

The French did a great deal to help us in the last 4 years of the Revolutionary War. But of course, conservative historical revisionists would deny anything in their fantasy of holding the French exclusively to blame for 80% of the world not supporting us in Iraq.

"...yet they supported Saddam's regime against us for a few measly dollars of oil money"

So everyone who saw through the lies about WMDs "supported Saddam"?

Are you wearing your beer goggles?

Which, of course, none of your articles show were shipped to Iraq. Chemicals, germs and vaccines used in medical research were not considered biowar materials. You would be whining just as badly if we had refused vaccines to any country...which later had a related epidemic. I particularly like the "fair" French article. It is amazing how much unsubstantiated "news" our enemies have uncovered since 2002 that they did not previously know...hmmm...good cover when asked about all the "oil for food" money they were receiving.

The report is from both the US, and from Iraqi officials (who are under the control of the US, in case you hadn't noticed, and can no longer be considered "the enemy").

This has all the hallmarks of yet another heavy handed screw-up by the US. Just like Fallujah, for instance.

And gimme a break with respect to whether you should or shouldn't have authorising the sale of anthrax to the Iraqis. I can't see how that is ever a good idea...

Actually, the French navy as well as the Spanish were certainly helpful once they realized we could win. IMHO, more because they wanted to weaken the Brits than to aid the Americans.

ASs we know know, the French were indeed wrong and saddam did not destroy all his WMDs. We have found both sarin and mustard gas in the last week alone. The French were instrumental in the United nation's failure to take saddam to task over the inspection issue...as thus, were much to blame.

The US claims that the attack was justified.

Until just a few years ago, almost any medical facility or university could purchase anthrax. It has been widely studied....for vaccines and cures due to it's unusual deadly nature and it's prevalance around large animals. It is hard to turn down any facillity that professes to seek a cure for a deadly disease.

I just made up the f/A18 part. As usual you miss the point. It really doesnt matter, does it. The Iraqis concerned are just as facked, are they not?

As it happens Im not your countryman, which is perhaps why I'm not genetically compelled to believe the long litany of lies that has accompanied this ill conceived misadventurous clusterfack, anymore than I believe the rantings of the Jihading nutbags who cut people's throats and blow themselves up.

Any claim the military and its spinmeisters had to the benefit of the doubt went out the window fairly early in the piece, and has beed left in smoking, stinking tatters in the last 10 days.

Some instances come immeadiately to mind.

-The Baghdad market missile strike. Oh, did we promise an investigation?
-Saddams house. Dont use bunker busters in residential areas and then call civilan deaths "accidental". They are not accidents.
-The Jessica Lynch affair. All lies. What a ripper.
-Falluja. The IDF would be proud.

Now, who can think of some more?



stuart

The US claims that the attack was justified.

Well, yeah, probably on the basis of what they knew (thought they knew?) beforehand and that they came under "hostile fire". I still stand by my "heavy handed" comment. Somebody screwed something up.

I'm going to concede to you on the anthrax point because I can't be bothered checking up. You're probably right, but its also likely you acknowledge somewhere back in the little-utilised liberal part of you brain that US's Iraq policy in the 80s was nothing to be proud of, did considerably more harm than good, and was - if a little more consideration had been taken at the time - probably preventable.

I am glad to hear you are not my countryman. Perhaps you will feel different about the "Jihading nutbags " when they visit your neighborhood. I guess we will just have to disagree since I am inclined to believe the account of my countrymen and govenment in each of these cases. I spent many years in the military and the system pretrty much always called them like they saw them...If there was injustice...it was exposed, much like has been done in the current prison scandal. Often I saw news reports like these that were clearly reporting exactly the opposite of what I was standing there staring at in person. The reporters who made up the crap were never even there.

Fair enough...

As far as our earlier involvement with Iraq...at the time, it was considered vital to stabilizing the region. Hindsight is 20/20, but it is also possible acting otherwise would have resulted in far worse consequences. One could also make the case that it was handled perfectly..Preventing the Middleastern powers from pitting their combined powers against us....first keeping Libya from gaining too much power and influence..then Iran, then Afghanistan, now Iraq..while keeping Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt and Syria busy with Israel. We will never know.

I saw it all pretty closely in NYC on Sep 11 01, as it happens. There are plenty of your countrymen that regard this preemptive military strike with the disgust that I do. I wont dispute anything you personally assert, and reporters do indeed make stuff up- but being ex military, I wonder how do you feel when you see men in uniform stand there and tell lies, all the way up to CIC?

Or when you join the military, do they surgically remove your critical faculty?

Mission accomplished.http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/ALLPOLITIC....main.wave.jpg

I also saw the devastation firsthand. I was at the pentagon on 9/11. Once again, I think we have to agree to disagree. I have yet to see any widespread lying from anyone in the military other than a few sad cases here and there..ie guards in prison scandal. I do not consider the "mission accomplished" photo op to be a lie, only a mistake. There is a big difference. Most Americans considered it to be "mission accomplished" at that time also. Who would have thought that the fighting would have dragged on so long? Those that ran from our forces during the war seem to have a bit more confidence hiding behind women and children and shooting at our soldiers while they attempt to rebuild the country. It never crossed my mind that they would react so either. I figured them to be a bit more honorable.

Fair enough. I don’t mean to impugn your motivations. But I think the essence of our difference is this- you believe the mission was liberation. The Iraqis, and indeed the Arab world see it as occupation.

As someone said quite eloquently- who knew the Iraqis could throw flowers so hard?

Have a pleasant evening, and thanks for the exchange.

stuart

Well put, but my suspicion is that most of the gentle flower throwers fear for their lives if too cozy with the Americans....and as thus, are a silent majority.

Same to ya!

I dont know about you, But I have never been to a "wedding" that had 2million dinar, wepons and a satcom radio. to quote techweenine "times have changed"

Not only that, but at 3am in the middle of the desert? Why would they fire on the ground forces and force them to call in close air support? I know...the whole "they were shooting up in the air to celebrate." Why would muslims be up and shooting in the air at 3am? It's not like they are allowed to be on an all-night drunk at a wedding like we are...they can't even buy booze. And on Wednesday? Weddings there are traditionally on Thursday. Note the "eyewitnesses" claimed to see exactly 100 bombs drop on these two houses...from a helicopter????Pretty hard to see bombs drop in the dark. oh the Satcom was to play a few rap tunes at the wedding...LOL

It is challenging for me at times to hold a respectable opinion in my head when I see some of these remarks. Sorry guys, but that's how I see it. And I only barely got through the first page.

Yes, Sarin is a WMD. And that shell, with the trace of Sarin, was reasonable justification for spending this money, forfeiting those lives, eroding world support and sympathy for our country, etc.? Those of you Bush supporters who feel vindicated....well, I just have to shake my head. Sorry guys, but you're going to have to make more sense, and less propaganda, to keep my respect. If it's your final position that "Yes, this was a WMD discovery showing that our "president" was justified in taking this action under these circumstances," then I am going to conserve my time and energy for discussions with folks whose brains work well enough to engage and participate in the discussion. Yes, Sarin is potentially a WMD. If you're smugly crossing your arms as though this means your "president" is vindicated, then we're done and you can go on thinking that.

well with sarin being lethal for an adult with 0.5 miligrams and 2000 miligrams per liter and those shells are known to posess 3-4 liters that means the shell has the ability to kill 6000-8000 people each.

Do you seriously think this is the only shell in Iraq?