My European friend says Len don't know **** from shinola (lengthy)

[joeclarke]

This is a bit funny and a bit interesting, so I thought it could stand it's own thread. In the thread about the pharmaceutical industry being bad guys, Len and I segued the debate into a mudslinging about socialized medicine.

Here I'll quote myself quoting Len and my response to him:

"Originally posted by lendaddy
I think you need to factor in quality of service a little here. Give me a kidney transplant in America over Slovokia any day But seriously, access to healthcare? What does that mean exactly. No one goes without emergency care here.
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Sheesh, I don't know Len. Funny you should bring up the Slovak Republic (I assume that's what you mean). I was travelling in Bratislava and surrounds earlier this year. Spent some time with a fellow that owns a few restaurants and a 993 turbo (how we met). Turns out he is Czech by birth but earned much of his wealth in North America before returning to invest at home.

He had a partly paralysed hand and had undergone a number of surgeries in the USA, Prague (Czech Republic) and in the Slovak Republic. He had nothing but praise for medical services today in eastern europe. I have emailed him for more comment on this subject and will bring you up to date when I hear from him.

It was a bit scary riding with him - he drove like a mad dog with that frozen hand "hooked" on the steering wheel. He had to place it and remove it with his good hand. A complete gentleman - he let us stay in his apartment while he travelled - but stopped short of loaning us his 993 - ah well. And he had never heard of Pelican - but can't hold that against him."

I did send an email to my buddy in Bratislava and here is his answer excerpted from his email to me:

Hi Joe, it was so wonderfully good to hear from you again. We are still thinking about taking you up on your kind offer. I did check that link that you provided to that Pelican’s Board – what a place that is. I only wished that I had heard of it when I lived on your side of the ocean. Have you been to that Pelican's store, or do you just buy goods by elecktronic means?

That story you told me to click to about the cost of drugs and quality of health services was troubling for me to understand. There were many portions that did not make good sense for any purpose. But I did inform myself from your message that you hoped to gather my opinion about matters here rather than in the America in the area of medical services. That opinion is as follows:

Today (different answer 20 years ago), I would appraise medical practioners and the industry are better at dealing with medical problems here than there. I mean no offense to any peoples, but the system in America is clogged by too many groups and individuals that have their own purpose for being in their part of the industry. Many, many times these different forces are at odds with each other – sometimes because out of malice sometimes because the way the cards are dealt. Money is normally a great equalizer, motivator and incentive to the advancement of industry and science. But medicine and money should be kept apart Joe.

Doctors and hospitals and insurance companies and employers and government are all far too much worried about chasing the dollars of medicine. The patients and their families get caught in the same cycle of having to wrestle with people or worry about dollars involved in their care when they can least afford such trouble or worry.

As to pure ability and skill – people are people, doctors are doctors. As to resources – what I see is there are more equipment available to provide services in America – probably overkilled. As to attitude – the medical peoples here are more broad minded about their relationship with their patient and all things important to the health of the patient. I think that is because money is eliminated from the question. Doctors here serve medicine as they like to and are well paid. No worries. In America medicine is business – worries for many.

This guy is fabulously wealthy, generous and entertaining - a rare combination, his view of the world is also pretty refreshing.

[lendaddy]

Cool I got called out Are we gonna have a dance off now? It's on!
The Slovakia reference I used was the first "out there" country I could think of, I obviously have no data on them. Pure humor I'm afraid.
Seriously though, thanks for editing out the part where he says I'm full of *****, much appreciated. This guy seems sincere enough, but where the heck is Bratislava and what kinda of system do they have? Also, seeing that he is "fabulously wealthy" do you really think his experiences are truely the same as joe six pack's? Does the Queen go to the same clinic as everyone else? Is he a doctor? In the end, it's his opinion, and in his defense he even says so. I'm glad this perked up your day, but do you want me to post e-mails from Canadians that hate their system? Would they somehow be less valid? I'll warn ya though they are not "fabulously wealthy"

Now, about that dance off.....

[nostatic]

is someone going to get served?

[beepbeep]

Hmm...I'm not "fabulously wealthy, generous and entertaining" but I believe we entangled in this sort of discussions before, but it was Sweden.

Consensus from me and some other people was that there are economies of scale to be enjoyed when practicing free healthcare and that involvement of money is somewhat counter-productive. And yes, even "Joe Six Pack" can enjoy it.

I didn't say you were full of it though

[Superman]

Thanks, Joe. Your friend sounds like a delightful man, and his input to you reads like a lucid and efficient outline of the problem we are facing here.

My wife was in the medical profession for many years and I'll pass along one of my beliefs/observations. People who go to college for a ticket to riches, do not go to medical school. Sure, there are exceptions. Plastic surgeons, probably. But law school, accounting and many other fields are better tickets to wealth. No, the people in the medical services industry are medical people. Health, to them, is like motoring to us. I cannot imagine approaching medicine like I approach motoring. Who would have the balls to stand over an anaesthetized patient with anything less than a love for medicine and a deep respect for the miracle we call the human body. for the most part, their interest in money takes approximately tenth place. Care for their patients is, in my experience, the hands down winner in terms of their priorities. Sure, they want to feed their families and be comfortable. And most of us would not begrudge them a handsome income. But those incomes are not what's driving costs. It's the money-changers, like usual. One of my all-time favorite bible stories. In fact, JC left us a plethora of remarks and bits of advice when it comes to money. I think the Bush administration is conducting a study involving sewing needles and camels. Like WC Fields, they're looking for the loophole.

[lendaddy]

Your pic doesn't show up Nostatic, I think I know what it is I thought you'de get a kick outta the reference.

Beep, I wasn't asking if Joe SP got access, rather I am sure the ultra wealthy do not find themselves on the waiting lists quite as long. Everywhere you go, money is power. In regards to Joe's buddy, I have no problems with what he said. But as I mentioned I can line people up who live with socialized medicine and despise it. Who's right?

[joeclarke]

Not to prolong the debate (well, Ok I guess I am) Len, but (thanks for having a sense of humor BTW), this fellow has lived in Czechoslovakia when it when it was under commie rule and then moved to USA. He spent most of his adult life here before moving back.

So I think he's pretty objective.

He's not a doctor, and yes, everyone (including the Queen - if they had one, well OK, that's maybe a push) gets served in the same way under a public system. The ultra wealthy hop their lears and pop over to the good old USA if they need their money to do the speaking for them.

Which kinda goes to my friend's point I guess.

[304065]

Here you are, hiding in this thread, with ONE data point!

Slovakia life expectancy = 73.7
US life expectancy = 77.1!

Here's a good article that supports your view.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/23/3/10

[joeclarke]

It's called stealth not hiding, John.

Interesting life expectancy data. Slovakia is certainly a nation in cultural, political and economic transition so swings in LE data will probably evolve as well. Most of Europe leads the US in these numbers, so I would expect the old eastern block nations will eventually follow suit.

Public & private sector medical spending (% of GDP)

US: 14.6% (Good God! - 14.6 % of GDP - thats freakin' enormous and not a single piece of ordnance to show for it!)

Slovak Republic: 5.7%

Public & private sector medical spending (per capita)

US: $5,267

Slovak Republic: $696

Thanks for the interesting article....

[Adam]

Joe, your friend sounds like a nice guy.

Originally posted by lendaddy:
Are we gonna have a dance off now?

"Listen to your friend - Billy Zane... he's a cool dude..."

[Moses]

Look, it's no secret. In the money making haydays of medicine, only the very top of the class went to medical school. As earnings have decreased, it has become easier and easier to get into medical school. This should not surprise anyone.

In the old USSR and many eastern block countries, a physician made about the same income as a postal worker. Did the quality of care suffer? Of course. I could tell you stories that would curl your toes.

In western Europe where physicians are still highly regarded and relatively well paid, the quality of care is excellent.