I would like a credible source for the number of "9 million", please.

But, let's say the savages were never conquered and we didn't destroy their lives with the reservation system. This would be a very dark world, as either communism or fascism (socialism by two names) would control the world and most likely destroyed it. You would be dead or a slave or a part of the communism/fascist party in order to survive.

You can thank the Judeo-Christian ideology and generosity for securing the freedom of the American Indian, who under the philosophical ideology you espouse (namely communism/socialism), would be slaves or killed.

If it wasn't for the Christian idealism, 300,000 white Christian men would not have died to free the slaves, fascism would quite possibly have conquered the World (or communism, but what is the difference?). Every time you spout off about how horrible this country is, techweenie, I want you to consider how many WHITE CHRISTIAN males died so you can be an ungrateful naysayer.

I know, I know...Marx's utopian ideal, can be achieved...Despite its ugly brutal pattern of failure, lets just give it one more shot...Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Lenin, Mussolini and Hitler meant well, afterall.

One thing I will never understand, why the Democrats chose the jackass as their political symbol (God works in mysterious ways).

I am awestruck.

As both a Christian by upbringing and part American Indian, I am absolutely amazed that anyone would even imply that the takeover of this country was in any way, shape, or form, God's work. The Indian WAS free before America was discovered. The Spanish, English and French along with the Dutch made certain that this freedom did not last.

I have NEVER seen or read anything that makes less sense as the above; supposition, assumption, and ideologies aside.

I will respond no further on these kinds of threads.

As Geronimo once said, "I will fight no more forever."

You have crossed the line of civility and humanity.

Mulholland,

If it is Christian Idealism that made America great. How do you explain slavery and the slaughter of the Indians?

Mul's planet has swung out of Earth's orbit and is heading into the deep reaches of space.

"You can thank the Judeo-Christian ideology and generosity for securing the freedom of the American Indian, who under the philosophical ideology you espouse (namely communism/socialism), would be slaves or killed."

Stunning. 'the fredom of the American indian' I guess invading North America is just like invading Iraq. I wonder who this 'ancient Saddam' was that the indians needed to be freedfrom?

Mul falls into the same obvious trap as every cornered Conservative. When the facts are uncomfortable, claim the facts as anti-American and claim the person who brought up the facts is a commie. Right out of the Tailgunner Joe playbook.

How many American "indians" were killed? There are lots of guesses. Read about them here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm

Are the dead 'free' now? Those people you call "savages": were their lives so terrible and meaningless before? Might be worth learning a bit about them before condemning them.
----------------

MEMORIAL AND RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE
"GRAND COUNCIL FIRE OF AMERICAN INDIANS"
PRESENTED TO THE HON. WILLIAM HALE THOMPSON,
MAYOR OF CHICAGO, IN 1927

"DECEMBER 1, 1927
TO THE MAYOR OF CHICAGO:


You tell all white men 'America First'. We believe in that.
We are the only one, truly, that are 100 percent. We therefore ask you while you are teaching school children about America First, teach them truth about the First Americans.

We do not know if school histories are pro-British, but we do know that they are unjust to the life of our people, the American Indian. They call all white victories, battles, and all Indian victories, massacres. The battle with Custer has been taught to school children as a fearful massacre on our part. We ask that this, as well as other incidents, be told fairly. If the Custer battle was a massacre, what was Wounded Knee?

History books teach that Indians were murderers...
is it murder to fight in self-defense? Indians killed white men because white men took their lands, ruined their hunting grounds, burned their forests and destroyed their buffalo. White men penned our people on reservations, then took away the reservations. White men who rise to protect their property are called patriots . . . Indians who do the same are called murderers.

White men call Indians treacherous . . . but no mention is made of broken treaties on the part of the white men. White men say that Indians were always fighting. It was only our lack of skill in white mans warfare that led to our defeat.
An Indian mother prayed that her boy be a great medicine man rather than a great warrior. It is true that we had our own small battles, but in the main we were peace-loving and home-loving.

White men called Indians thieves . . . and yet we lived in the frail skin lodges and needed no locks or iron bars. White men call Indians savages.
What is civilization? Its marks are a noble religion and philosophy, original arts, stirring music, rich history and legend. We had these.
Then we were not savages, but a civilized race.

We made blankets that were beautiful that the white men with all his machinery has never been able to duplicate. We made baskets that were beautiful.
We wove in beads and colored quills, designs that were not just decorative motifs, but were the outward expression of our very thoughts.
We made pottery . . . pottery that was useful and beautiful as well.
Why not make school children acquainted with the beautiful handicrafts in which we were skilled? Put in every school Indian blankets, baskets, pottery.

We sang songs that carried in their melodies all the sounds of nature . . .
the running of waters, the sighing of winds and the calls of the animals.
Teach these to your children that they may come to love nature as we love it.

We had our statesmen . . . and their oratory has never been equalled.
Teach the children some of the speeches of our people, remarkable for their brilliant oratory.

We played games . . . games that brought good health and sound bodies.
Why not put these in your schools? We told stories. Why not teach school children more of the wholesome proverbs and legends of our people?
Tell them how we loved all that was beautiful. That we killed game only for food, not for fun. Indian's think white men who kill for fun are murderers.

Tell your children of the friendly acts of Indians to the white people who first settled here. Tell them of our leaders and heroes and their deeds.
Put in your history books the Indians part in the World War.
Tell how the Indian fought for a country of which he was not a citizen, for a flag to which he had no claim, and for a people that have treated him unjustly.

The Indians has long been hurt by these unfair books. We ask only that our story be told in fairness. We do not ask you to overlook what we did, but we do ask you to understand it. A true program of America First will give a generous place to the culture and history of the American Indian."

Get over it...Better the Christian freedom we offer than the murderous tyranny of communists or fascists...The American Indians have been crippled by reservations and entitlements...The past is the past, but the present is a plantation.

And, pale-face, I am part American Indian also.

300,000 white Christian men died freeing the slaves, under the party began as the "Abolition Party", namely the Republican Party...The very party that passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

So, you want to ignore reality and think all lands that are inhabited by other than strictly indigenous people should leave said lands?...If so, then the people who call themselves 'Palestinians' should pack up their bombs and get out of the land called Palestine?

Mull,

I have no idea where you come from, but I suspect that in your world, this could happen as well :D


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1087739708.jpg

Aurel

Aurel, Thank you, thank you for that. Do you have any pictures of flying pigs or compassionate conservatives or 320HP Subarus winning endurance races or ?........ :D http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat4.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat3.gif

Thank you so much, Mul, for clarifying the conservative viewpoint. Len, Island and the rest of you who have spoken in support of Mul's arguments. This will help everyone see where your ideology leads. Profoundly disturbing to me. I just hope the swing voters get to see that it looks like when the conservative ideology is taken to its conclusion. Like I've said before, thanks Mul. Glad you're not on my side but then, there's certainly no danger of that.

Speeder,

Since I really like you and I believe that right now, the conservatives are ready to see pigs fly rather than admit how wrong they have been with supporting the useless war in Iraq, here is a sighting of flying pigs. Since they will never admit being wrong, no use arguing with them. I just offer flying pigs :D
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1087780666.gif

Aurel

It appears by mul's logic any attrocity can be justified if it can somehow be linked to defeating godless communism or fascism.

I guess he would never even bother to consider that his mindless idolatry helps to bring about creeping fascism in his own party and government.

Techweenie:

I checked your source for the indian count. I don't know if I'd call that one "reliable". They had no idea how many indians there were, so they picked a nice round number and took 98% of that. I'm not buying that one my friend. BTW your claim was that the 9 million was "sanctioned" by the US government, but your source used a time frame of over 400 years that the "genocide" (? your word, not mine) occured. Here we go with that math again (and I thought I was bad with numbers........).Why don't you give this one another shot.

As far as your claim of "cornered conservatives", easy there with your analogy. McCarthy was right. I don't recall ever calling you or anyone else here a "commie" or "un-american" although just for the record I have been called several ugly names on this very board by a liberal *gasp*.................

The essay you posted was heartwarming. Inaccurate, but heartwarming. He did have one or two very valid points unfortunately (for me anyway) it was overshadowed by the rest.

One more thing about about that link you posted; I wandered around a bit I'm afraid, they are WAY off in their presumtioons of "biblical intollerance". We can discuss it if you like.

Oh yeah, did you ever find those "right leaning articles" you were looking for?

Pete

I'll admit several things...Bill Clinton dropped the ball, had Osama offerred on a silver platter...Bill Clinton's Justice Department (read Jamie Goerlick) manufactured the wall that inhibited interagency communication...I will admit that the 9/11 Commission is a sham...I will admit that the Democrats are intentionally dividing this country and making suckers like you believe their pattern B.S.

I will admit that the lies and flagrant slander from the leftist sheep herders borders on treasonous...I will admit that the Democrat slime are intentionally demoralizing American servicemen and women, the American public (albeit unsuccessfully) and giving aid and comfort to the enemy in the process.

I will admit that the Democrat party only has one last trick in their book, hate. The Democrat party has lost all credibility and they will have set their socialist ideology back 15 years...There is good reason why the public has elected GW Bush and gave him a mandate in 2002, because the Democrat party lacks any substance or crediblity.

Your premise is without historical precedent, however, my premise that socialism leads to creeping fascism holds water...Evidenced by Hitler and Mussolini, Stalin and Lenin, Mao and Pol Pot, Castro and Saddam.

Limited government capitalism with a Christian foundation has NEVER lead to fascism...EVER.

Reprobate.

Precisely...Joe McCarthy uncovered the Democrats for what they were, communist sympathizers at least, knowingly harboring Soviet spies at the most...This was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt with Alger Hiss, the Rosenberg's and the Venona Project (released in 1995).

If anything is a "witchhunt" it is the incessant distortions about GW Bush...If any party is the party of "McCarthyism" (an empty term in historical perspective) it is the Democrat party.

For instance, the obstruction of Christian Justices, black and Hispanic justices, from the nominee process, because they are Christian or minority...They demonized these justices with hate-filled distortions and slander because they were strong-armed to do so by ultra-left special interest groups like N.O.W.

Mulholland

Thanks for making me realise that anything left of centre is a slippery slope down to socialism and the hasty plummet from there to fascism.

However, I am confused by a simple look around the world. I see many countries run by (elected) governments you would consider extremely socialist, yet they all seem to be "getting by" without the seduction of fascism. For example, Europe (pretty much all of it). The UK, obviously. The US, about 50% of the time. Canada, I think. Australia and New Zealand, certainly.

Basically, I ask myself what the hell you are trying to insinuate/prove. It all started when you compared Hitler to Democrats.

You know, I will tell you it is a little reactionary on my part...Every time some leftist ********* makes the unfounded and totally historically inaccurate statement that Republicans are fascists, or the party of the KKK, or the white-boy party, etc., etc., etc...It makes me want to find the source of this intentional bull$hit and beat the crap out of it....So my comparison is simply to set the record straight on who Hitler was and how his ideology, including blaming the Jews and capitalism, truly is frighteningly similar to that of the Democrat party.

truly is frighteningly similar to that of the Democrat party

I think we can disagree there ;) See my other post in the other thread.

However, I agree fully that calling Republicans fascists etc is a questionable debating tactic, and I don't think it gains much ground.

That's my boy!! :)

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. ;)