Spain is now France

[Blackfoot]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040316/ap_on_re_eu/spain_worried_allies&cid=518&ncid=716

___________________
Cars

[Neilk]

What, right in that they are no longer going to support an administration that lied about WMDs?

[Purrybonker]

How? Because they ousted a government that ignored the wishes of 90% + of their own voters? That doesn't make them "now France".

The French government had the wisdom to respect the wishes of their population in declining to participate in the Big Mac, er... Iraq Attack.

The Spanish government needed an election to gain an understanding of this fundamental principle of democracy.

[Moses]

Ever been to Spain? They have lived on the front lines of this conflict for more than a thousand years. They know the stakes. We (U.S.) are relative newcomers to the holy wars. I don't judge them too harshly.

And France? They remember Algeria as a prominent entry in their global travelogue of ass-kickings. They loathe violence as they are not particularly good at it.

[dhoward]

WMD.
That's the REAL issue here.
Not killing his own people for fun and supporting terrorism world wide. You know, other than that, Sodom's (sic) a pretty good guy.
You guys watch too much TV...

[BlueSkyJaunte]

http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/sandplanes.asp

[joeclarke]

And France? They remember Algeria as a prominent entry in their global travelogue of ass-kickings. They loathe violence as they are not particularly good at it

...what is with this continuing pedantic nonsense about the French? Haven't we graduated past this kind of childish attack on those that disagree with a particular view (ie the US take) of certain issues?

Not that I want to participate in the continuation of this tit-for-tat crap, but the French did had a pretty significant impact on the outcome of the US war of independence. Also - it seems that Monsieur Bonaparte pretty much had his way with most of europe for more than a few years.

To accuse the French (or the Spanish, or anyone else for that matter) of avoiding the Iraq confict because of fear is the obverse of accusing the US of desiring willful murder and destruction as their sole motivation in commencing the attack.

Throwing an emotional facade in front of the actions of others is a simple tactic to discredit their argument without the burden of reason.

N'est ce pas?

[Moses]

Originally posted by joeclarke
...what is with this continuing pedantic nonsense about the French?

It's fun and easy!

[Moses]

The Complete Military History of France


- Gallic Wars

- Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

- Hundred Years War

- Mostly lost, saved at last by female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." Sainted.

- Italian Wars

- Lost. France becomes the first and only country to ever lose two wars when fighting Italians.

- Wars of Religion

- France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots

- Thirty Years War

- France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

- War of Revolution

- Tied. Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

- The Dutch War

- Tied

- War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War

- Lost, but claimed as a tie. Three ties in a row induces deluded Frogophiles the world over to label the period as the height of French military power.

- War of the Spanish Succession

- Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved every since.

- American Revolution

- In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting."

- French Revolution

- Won, primarily due the fact that the opponent was also French.

- The Napoleonic Wars

- Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

- The Franco-Prussian War

- Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

- World War I

- Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

- World War II

- Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

- War in Indochina

- Lost. French forces plead sickness; take to bed with the Dien Bien Flu

- Algerian Rebellion

- Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare; "We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese and Esquimaux.

- War on Terrorism

- France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe. Attempts to surrender to Vietnamese ambassador fail after he takes refuge in a McDonald's.

The question for any country silly enough to count on the French should not be "Can we count on the French?", but rather "How long until France collapses?"

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion. All you do is leave behind a lot of noisy baggage."

Or, better still, the quote from last week's Wall Street Journal: "They're there when they need you."


www.albinoblacksheep.com

[Aurel]

You see Moses, it is easy to mock the french and to brag about the superior US military force. However, it appears that this military superiority has become pretty much useless in modern day warfare. The conflict in Iraq is a very good demonstration of this new reality, where the real problems have only started when the military fight was declared over. What is most needed these days is INTELLIGENCE, an ingredient that the american power seems to be lacking over and over.
Brute force can do nothing against terrorism, just fuel it more. Look at the Israelo-Palestinian conflict if you do not beleive me. And now, because of Bush STUPIDITY, the threat has been shifted to Europe. Thanks for nothing, really. The french made the right choice. Spain and Britland did not. Fighting terrorism with plane carriers and cannons was the most moronic idea one could have thought about. But we all know that the fight against terrorism is a big excuse to get oil and business anyways. Right ?

Aurel

[Moses]

Originally posted by Aurel
You see Moses, it is easy to mock the french...
Aurel

I really like France. And the French. My ribbing is intended to be good natured. Truth is I joke about everything and anybody and I'm happy to "get as good as I give."

Have you seen the French political cartoons? Caustically anti-American, but funny!

[Aurel]

I know Moses. I don`t don`t mind good jokes either. The truth is just this had to come out, one way or the other...I really like the americans too...the people are never the problem, their governements are, especially when they act against the people`s will, or try to gain the will by manipulation.

Aurel

[Purrybonker]

It's fun and easy!

...normally I can get behind that kind of thinking - we take ourselves for too seriously much of the time, but...

Things like the Iraq situation where vast numbers of peoples lives are at stake, not to mention that some vastly important fundamentals about how we conduct ourselves as civilized people are being obliterated (or negatively perpetuated - depending on your perspective), should transcend such off-the-cuff treatment.

Your posture probably epitomizes the cavalier US attitude toward other peoples of the world that only serves to exacerbate anti-US sentiment.

Gee, why do parts of the world hate the US?

Not because anyone is rich and priviledged like Mr. Bush would have you believe. The world has no particular issue with the Japanese or the Swiss or Canadians. But then those people seem to not create or indulge themselves in Iraq or quasi-Iraq situations that are transparently rooted in the financial or political interests of Japanese or Swiss or Canadian citizens.

[BGCarrera32]

Originally posted by joeclarke
...what is with this continuing pedantic nonsense about the French? Haven't we graduated past this kind of childish attack on those that disagree with a particular view (ie the US take) of certain issues?

Ummm...no. You're in the off-topic area. Get over it.

[lendaddy]

The people in Spain voted, nuff said. I am fine with that. However you simply CANNOT deny they caved to the terrorists. The polls before the bombings had it obviously the other way. I cannot for the life of me imagine the US reacting the same way. Bomb us and you'll only solidify the populous in ridding the world of your filth. Two different mindsets.

[lendaddy]

"What, right in that they are no longer going to support an administration that lied about WMDs?"

WRONG WRONG WRONG, polls had it the other way till they were attacked. Get real, this is really simple.

[CamB]

Wasn't sure what too think when I read this:

Bin Laden escaped capture several times, French say
Alan Riding The New York Times

PARIS France's senior military officer says that Osama bin Laden on several occasions narrowly escaped capture by French troops working alongside American forces in Afghanistan, although he conceded that bin Laden's capture would not in itself suffice to dismantle Al Qaeda.
.
"It will change nothing directly," General Henri Bentegeat, the chief of staff of the French armed forces, said in an interview Monday with France's Europe 1 radio station. Al Qaeda, he said, is "a hydra, so if you catch one head, there will be others."
.
But he added that bin Laden's capture was indispensable "on principle, for justice and for the innumerable victims of these monstrous attacks."
.
He said that 200 French special forces troops were participating alongside American forces in Afghanistan in the hunt for bin Laden. "Our men have not been far," he said. "On several occasions, I even think he slipped out of a net that was well closed."
.
Bentegeat did not say when or where these near-captures took place. A spokesman for the Defense Ministry refused to provide additional details. The French military chief also said he considered Al Qaeda "very probably" responsible for the coordinated bomb attacks in Madrid last week because of their detailed preparation.
.
"Four paramilitaries and three miscreants have been killed," said the spokesman, Major General Shaukat Sultan. He said one was suspected to be a foreigner.

Is it good because they are there, part of the operation in Afghanistan? Or bad, because they let him slip through?

With respect to the Spanish decision to pull out of Iraq, I can see why they are doing it. I'm not sure I agree --> to me creating a link between a terrorist action and the withdrawal of troops may create an obvious incentive for more terrorism. I'd rather they hadn't sent the troops in in the first place.

In other news, I wonder how true this is:

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,3772-3178396,00.html

The Pentagon is being accused of twisting information to drive the US to war.

The criticism comes from recently retired US air force Lieutenant Colonel and former analyst, Karen Kwiatkowski.

[CamB]

Originally posted by lendaddy
"What, right in that they are no longer going to support an administration that lied about WMDs?"

WRONG WRONG WRONG, polls had it the other way till they were attacked. Get real, this is really simple.

I'm not so sure about this. Prior to the war, 90% were against sending troops. Not sure about the view of the Spanish people immediately prior to being attacked by terrorists.

[lendaddy]

Conservative administration was ahead by 5&-10% depending on polls.

[CamB]

You guys weren't going to do a whole lot of things until 9.11.