Any lawyers familiar with Bankruptcy paperwork out there?

CHILI · CHILI's Garage

The company my Fiancé worked for declared Bankruptcy. They owe her some money and we have finally received the claim paperwork, but I have a couple of questions about it. I don't want to fill it out incorrectly and lose money.

If anyone is familiar with this stuff, can you drop me an e-mail at the address below? I'm sure my questions are basic (probably stupid, too) and will only take a minute. I would be VERY grateful.

chad.bowser@northgate.com

juanbenae · juanbenae's Garage

there not enough money in bankruptcy to keep too many lawyers interested. now had you girl been injured or sexually harassed on the job they'd flock to you like bird over a clean car.

Scooter · 09:31 AM

Chad,

Contrary to the failed attempt at humor above, lawyers do want to help people and it is not about the all-mighty buck. The problem is ethics. Yes, I said ethics. Law is a highly regulated and ethical practice. Lawyers must be careful not to give the impression of representation without actual representation, especially when the so-called client is in a different State than where they are licensed. It may not be that they don't want to help, but that they can't. Bankruptcy is a little different, because it is in Federal Court, but the representation aspect still holds true. Good luck with your situation.

singpilot · 06-07-2004, 02:51 PM

I was owed money from GlobalCrossing when they went.

I got forms for a year. Some from different groups.

I filled out the forms as best I could. Never got a cent.

There is a pecking order that is almost upside down. As a stockholder, I was bottom priority ($2600 worth of stock worth nada).

As an secured creditor, I was SOL($11,000 account, recovered zero).

The people that got money were unsecured creditors who were not owed much.

I think the CEO got his expense reports paid for.

The payback was cents on the dollar. The new Global Crossing is, of course, not touchable.

Best of luck.

CHILI · CHILI's Garage

Thanks guys! And yes, Scott, I understand. It's just a form, so I don't think there's a way to go "too far off track". I just wanted to make sure I understood what they wanted.

Ohh, and I thought the humor was pretty funny! But, I don't take things too seriously.

juanbenae · juanbenae's Garage

i dont think it was failed, i smiled reading it again.

good luck trying to figure scooter's lawyer speak above. if im reading it right, he cant help you because he does not represent you. how do you get him to represent you? write a check.

all lawyer bashing aside good luck chili.

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Scooter84
Law is a highly regulated and ethical practice.

now *that* is the funniest thing I've read on this board in some time...

Zeke · 06-07-2004, 07:55 PM

Yeah, where the f*^k did he come from? I actually had a lawyer go bankrupt on me. He knew he was going down when he took my $1000 retainer. I won't work for or associate with lawyers.

I got sued by an immigrant laborer a few years back. I saw enough then for a lifetime. Total scumbags in the Workers' Compensation Appeals Board courts. Every last one without exception. You wouldn't let these guys mow your lawn. Downright greasy sacks of *****. It's even funny to me now. I can spot them.

campbellcj · 06-07-2004, 10:29 PM

LOL, Hey Milt tell us how ya *really* feel!

Sorry to say Chili, but lotsa luck on this one.

A competitor of ours went belly-up last summer. They did $5+ mil in sales per year for a short time but were burning thru money like mad and running large losses (on investors' cash) each year.

Towards the end there were zero customers, zero hard assets, zero soft assets, zero employees, and zero cash flow. The entire "estate" as it were, liquidated for $140K and very likely the first-round angel or VC got all of that, as usually they have liquidation preference clauses in their terms. In fact, it is not uncommon for early investors to have 2X or higher returns in their terms, meaning that they will receive "X" times their original capital before anybody else gets squat.

By the time a company goes Chapter 7, they are usually so deep under that any employee or supplier will be way at the back of the line compared to Series A investors or major creditors.

Definitely a farked up situation and be sure to file the papers, but personally I would not go to the bank on it.

Moses · 06-08-2004, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scooter84

Law is a highly regulated and ethical practice

What a hoot! When I was younger and more naive, I did some expert witness work. After days of depositions, the law firm never paid my bill. I had a new practice and money was tight, so I wrote letters and called a few times, eventually they told me it was unlikely I would be paid.

Later I learned that it was common practice to insist that lawyers pay you up front and in full BEFORE you do the work, as they are famous for not paying. Silly me.

As for ethics, I found malpractice testimony to be eye opening. The one thing I'm sure of is that neither side is interested in the truth. Both sides represent their clients. In doing so, they obfuscate, mislead, warp and twist the facts until the truth is unrecognizable. In the end, money changes hands and justice may or may not have been served. Doesn't really matter.

304065 · 06-08-2004, 07:54 AM

Gentlemen,

Despite Scooter's inarticulate attempt above, the law IS a highly regulated and ethical practice. What he's trying to say is, we are trained in law school and after admission on an ongoing basis to uphold ethical standards. For example, Chad is probably a resident of the State of California. Scooter is not admitted in California, and neither am I, for that matter. So it would be a violation of ETHICS for either of us to advise Chad as to how to do something even so simple as fill out the forms. If we do, and then the BK case is resolved, and Chad gets nothing because he forgot to fill in a blank, for example, he can then turn around and SUE HIS LAWYER for malpractice!

WHY are Scooter, or me, or JP, or any of the possibly THOUSANDS of other lawyers who frequent the board, reluctant to help a nice guy like Chad out? ETHICS, something we learned a long time ago, don't go helping people with their problems until you have a chance to sit down with them, understand all the facts and circumstances.

Moses, would you do a diagnosis over the internet? Would you write a script for somebody after a phone consultation? What would your malpractice carrier say if you did?

All you guys who got burned by lawyers, there's an ETHICS grievance procedure established in every state. If you aren't happy with the way your attorney handles a matter, and I don't mean you lost and you aren't happy with the OUTCOME, but rather, you advanced the attorney fees and services were never rendered, like what happened to Milt, then there's a procedure to follow. The law is a business like any other, sometimes people go out of business and lose money. UNLIKE in the Global Crossing scenario, however, the law provides a way to keep score to try to prevent other people from getting burned.

So, ENOUGH with the lawyer-bashing. It seems to be a popular sport around here, but just wait until your property or your liberty is threatened in a meaningful way, who are you gonna call?

And don't give me that "professional courtesy" horse****. We take ethical violations seriously because we are collectively sick as a profession of having vacuum-cleaner salesmen tell jokes about us.

Which reminds me, did you hear the one about. . .

Iggy · 06-08-2004, 08:22 AM

I'll bite. I'm a bankruptcy lawyer. Take a look at this link for info on employee wage claims. It should help you a bit. Since I'm not the one actually giving the advice, perhaps y'all won't crucify me for trying to help.

I have no information regarding the author of the website or the firm. It just contains information relevant to the question first posted in this thread.

Link

juanbenae · juanbenae's Garage

as the lawyers defend themselves here one thing strikes me as odd. they go to great pain to explain why they cant, or wont help an individual. seems that if they could PM the requester of legal assistance and say something along the lines of "heres my number call me and lets talk about what you've got happening and maybe i can give some friendly "free" advice." not as a represenitive, or retained legal advisor but as a fellow pelican. that way there is no written word that a lawyer has given a freeby over state lines.

im no lawyer, dont even play one on TV, but coming from a construction back ground my advise now cost too. dont want to advise on framing the under pinning for that new deck, if it falls over in 10 years you will hire a lawyer and that'll show me.

Zeke · 06-08-2004, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moses

As for ethics, I found malpractice testimony to be eye opening. The one thing I'm sure of is that neither side is interested in the truth. Both sides represent their clients. In doing so, they obfuscate, mislead, warp and twist the facts until the truth is unrecognizable. In the end, money changes hands and justice may or may not have been served. Doesn't really matter.

Oh man, you should have been in on my case. The immigrant's attorney was so full of lies that I had to resort to flat denying anything ever took place between me and the plaintiff. I lost, but not to the extent that I could have financially. The case was over a hand injury. I discovered the plaintiff had a job throwing newspapers at 4 AM when he and his lawyer said he couldn't work for 6 months. I got a minimum fine as a result. The crap they tried to pull down on the judge was so bad that the judge kept throwing us out of the court to settle. I wouldn't settle. I made my lawyer take it to the extreme. Any of the proposed settlement amounts were for more than the judgment, so in a way, I won.

The real eye opener was how familiar and friendly all the WC lawyers and judges are with each other. They are the same group day after day, only the plaintiffs and defendants change. When you catch these guys in the hallway chatting like the old friends they are, you realize that the dog and pony show in the court room is just that. All designed for the recorder to get down for the record. These guys don't mean a thing they say and they are just playing the numbers for their state mandated 15%. It's all about volume so the take back to the firm is at its maximum.

I refuse to go to jury duty because of what a farce the justice system has become. This, IMO, is a direct result of the lawyers who work the system. OJ comes to mind; a TV spectacle that produced a career and a couple of best sellers.

I hope I never need another lawyer and never see another court. My utter disdain for this system and its players cannot be over-emphasized. A kangaroo court would be better. The whole thing and the rip off at a later date has changed my life. I refuse to work within any system that can come back at me if I can possibly help it. I will not ever have any employees due to the farqued up WC system.

The last time I worked for an attorney, I didn't get paid. This was over a matter of window leaks that someone else installed. She basically told me it would cost me more money to extract payment than the payment itself and I was better off dropping the issue. Without a bulletproof contract and clear understanding of what was expected, I was out of luck. Once again, looking back, she purposely set it up in a nebulous manner so this would be the outcome. Her strategy was well worked out due to lots of experience. I became a pawn in a rook's game (double meaning intended).

Scooter · 06-08-2004, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by john_cramer
Despite Scooter's inarticulate attempt above

I really don't see what is "inarticulate" about my statement above. Just because I did not write a long-winded explanation of the ethics rules of lawyers, does not make my statement inarticulate. To each his own, I guess.

Zeke · 06-08-2004, 10:10 AM

But wait, there's more.

After the one lawyer skipped with my grand, I went to another lawyer reccommended by a customer. The issue was a real estate matter and I agreed to pay the second lawyer from proceeds in escrow. He agreed to do the thing for $3500 flat fee but avoided putting that down in writing. I discovered that he had billed the escrow company for $6000! I mean, can you believe this *****?!

I suppose you might think that I can stretch the truth a little here to make my point. The thing is, I can give dates, names and even tell you about the model train collection in this last (and I mean last) lawyer's office. I'm sure I bought him a nice addititon.

If you were me, how could you ever believe there is such a thing as a good lawyer? The jokes may not be accurate, but the truth is.

Zeke · 06-08-2004, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scooter84
Chad,

Contrary to the failed attempt at humor above, lawyers do want to help people and it is not about the all-mighty buck. The problem is ethics. Yes, I said ethics. Law is a highly regulated and ethical practice. Lawyers must be careful not to give the impression of representation without actual representation, especially when the so-called client is in a different State than where they are licensed. It may not be that they don't want to help, but that they can't. Bankruptcy is a little different, because it is in Federal Court, but the representation aspect still holds true. Good luck with your situation.

The part in question regarding 'inarticulate' is the use of too many pronouns. At one point, unless you either know something about this, or read very slowly, is that we don't follow who "they" is at one point or another.

"...the so-called client is in a different State than where they are licensed." There is a question here as to who is licensed if one doesn't make the correct assumption. Minor, I know, but there is some doubt left by the syntax and pronoun useage.

I understood what it meant......obviously.

island911 · 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by john_cramer
Gentlemen,

Despite Scooter's inarticulate attempt above, the law IS a highly regulated and ethical practice. What he's trying to say is, we are trained in law school and after admission on an ongoing basis to uphold ethical standards.
. . .
So, ENOUGH with the lawyer-bashing. It seems to be a popular sport around here. . .

This is NOT lawyer-bashing, as I know it.

CLEARLY Scott is playing the "I can't respond, because it wouldn't be thourough"-card, straight from law-ethics-101. If you cant see how much that smacks of "RACKET" . . .well . . .let me just say, you are not going to pull that sheep over the eyes of anyone here.

This forum is an informal communication medium. I think we are safe thowing out our two cents worth, with the implied understanding that it is JUST that. . . .But then, what would I know; I'm not some stinky, slimey, grandma-Nellie-scamming lawer.

(now that is lawyer-bashing)

btw, some of my best friends are lawers.

Moses · 06-08-2004, 10:26 AM

Another great story:

My father had a small paving company. He put in a driveway for a local attorney and was never paid (I know, you're shocked). There were no complaints about the workmanship, so my dad hired a lawyer to secure his $10,000. The lawyer agreed to take the case on an hourly basis. After 3 months, the lawyer said they wouldn't pay, so he needed more money to write more letters. Six months later, no payment. He needs more money to file in court. "This could take some time", he said. After more than a year and over $1000 in legal fees my dad paid the man with the driveway a personal visit to see what the problem was. He showed my dad a cancelled check for the full amount deposited by his lawyer more than a year earlier. True story.

Rot 911 · 06-08-2004, 10:47 AM

Yes there are bad lawyers. Just like there are bad doctors, bad cops, even bad window installers.

For the record k911sc I have helped several members on this board and the 944 board with legal questions, but have done so privately and didn't charge them a penny.

Moses, I generally write off $8000 to $10,000 a year from clients that don't pay me. Including doctors. Doesn't mean I don't keep from trying to help. Even doctors. The two that I just represented before the Healing Arts Board last month resulted in two decisions of no cause for discipline against their licenses. They seem to be pretty happy with lawyers right now. I guess what I am trying to say is let's not paint any profession with too broad of a brush. I didn't respond to the BK question because I don't know squat about BK.