I certainly do not see service members as children or lambs, and it's true that when they signed up for the free education they agreed to fight in any war or military exercise that our leaders engage them in.

However, there has always been an implicit understanding in civilised countries that they would only be sent to die, (yes), when it was absolutely necessary to the security of the country, not used as cannon fodder for political or other purposes, such as land-grabbing or other aggressive actions. Obviously this is what distinguishes the civil world from the other half, where soldiers are considered a cheap, renewable resource to be used however Baby Doc or Saddam chooses.

A huge number of people in the world, and I do mean HUGE, believes that Bush and Co. violated that covenent in starting a pre-emptive war in Iraq that was completely illegal, unnecessary, (and not just in hindsight), and not a confirmed sucess by any stretch at this point in time. Building schools? Liberating people? From what?? Talk to me in 5 years. The freaking arrogance and hubris of the right-wing crowd would make many a dictator blush.

As for the "Democrats/left hating the military", complete BS. One of these days I'm going to post my Dad's last campaign ad, (he was an elected Judge), we are Democrats and he proudly displayed the fact that he is a Korean war veteran as well as union member and a Democrat. This was well before 9/11 and the latest brouha. :cool:

Here's a copy of an email I sent to O'Rielly on this subject.

"Bill, I like you. I don't always agree with you but you say what's on your mind. You've got sand. When I heard you lined up Michael "pass the fried chicken" Moore I was primed for a whippin'. But I think you let him get away. You didn't get outsmarted. While you chose to be a gentleman, Moore labored under no such encumberences. His crude question about sacrificing your son to take Faludiah was I'm sure practiced & well used by the time he tried it on you. Someone less polite than you might well have responded, "Given the choice I'd rather not. But if YOUR son was one of those getting their head hacked off by those vicious murdurers, would you want my son to bring them to justice?" This guy has managed to stay as slippery as a greased uhhh Michael Moore due to the manners of some good people. I have two words of advice should he show up again, bare knuckes. Keep up the good work! "

And here is my buddy Abby's response to a left wing nutball who occupies a desk (as opposed to working) at the epa in DC's comments on my letter.

"If you actually believe what you saw in unFahrenheit 9/11, you may try reading the 9/11 commision report that came out this week. Not only does it prove MM lied and misled, but at 9.95 from Kinko's you can get a real prespective of which administration truly failed our beloved country.

However should you choose to continue getting your 'facts' from the movies, I suggest seeing SpidermanII.... it only took the masked Republican one day to knock the nit witted liberal Democrat Moore off the top.... How do I know Spiderman is a Republican? Because only a Republican would actually go do something to stop evil... A liberal Democrat like yourself, would simply try to find out who the Reublican was that made the Green Gobblin evil....... "

Put yourself in Bush's situation Sept. 12, 2001. We have just been attacked and 3,000 americans are dead. Our enemy uses unconventional methods and has cells operating in our own country. We know the people who have declared their own wars on America, and we never responded to them. Osama declared jihad on America in the 90's, and Saddam declared war on us in the early 90's also. We know that Saddam was paying the families of palestinian suicide bombers in Israel $25,000, and we also know that Salman Pak was a training facility used by Al Qaeda. The idea that Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq is ridiculous. Al Qaeda had bases in every major country in the world, including the US. In addition to this, we _know_ that saddam's men were meeting with members of Al Qaeda. To suggest that two of the most ruthless men in the world who both had the same goal (Destroying the US, and pushing Israel into the sea) wouldn't cooperate with each other is asinine. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, remember? But beyond that, we have proof of these meetings.

John Kerry said in his speech, "Let there be no mistake: I will never hesitate to use force when it is required. Any attack will be met with a swift and a certain response." In other words, he's not going to take the offensive in making sure we're safe. No, he's going to wait until we are attacked to respond. Knowing what we knew at the time to be true, based on all of the intelligence, based on the history of what Saddam's done, any responsible leader would have done what Bush did. In fact, 45 countries did think he was doing the right thing when they contributed to the war in Iraq.

Who opposed the war and why? France, Germany, Russia. France doesn't count because they're all sissies anyway. They were trying to protect themselves because they didn't want their corruption to come out with regards to the oil for food program. The germans will only join a conflict if they're the ones starting it. Russia had no money and has its own problems to deal with. Those are the three opponents of the war. You know what, we did consult the UN. When we got Resolution 1441, the 12th resolution against Saddam, and the security council voted unanimously to accept it. We tried to deal with Saddam, and gave him every opportunity to prove that he had nothing. You people say that we didn't let the weapons inspectors do their job. Hell, the inspectors weren't doing their job in their first place. By definition, they weren't allowed to. They weren't allowed into Saddam's mansions, and they had such restricted access it was impossible for them to really do their job.

I don't fully agree. The US has sent troops in the name of world security, and not just for US interests (Yugoslavia, Somalia, virtually any UN-mandated measure, as well as troops currently in Germany, South Korea, and other countries with US bases). As far as cannon fodder, French troops lead the way. ;)

I agree with Moore's point. It's very disappointing troops have died for a cause that seems to have vanished. If we are only there to liberate Iraq, what's the next stop? Are we prepared to invade dozens of other countries, including China? Of course, this is all hindsight. As long as there was no attempt to deceive, I cannot blame the government. If Bush and Co. deceived or lied, bring out the noose. Then again, if Bush was really trying to pull a big stunt, don't you think we'd have found Korean nukes in Iraq by day 6 of the invasion?

Hmmm, what were the intial predictions for the duration of this war? 45 days?

No one, including Bush, wanted this to drag on. However, if he were to waver things would be much worse. As ugly as it is we have to stay the course.

Rick, the war is over, at least the organized military part. The resistance has continued. Be sure you understand the distinction between war and resistance.

I watched the interview and the one thing that really stood out was that MM insisted on using the terms "sacrifice" and "sending children to die" as if everyone who serves over there is a sacrificial lamb or a child whose death is inevitable by just being there. That is disingenuous at the very least. MM just spouted his position over and over without even once pausing to consider or refute what OR was saying. It looked to be a stereotypical liberal response, "if I scream and shout enough, then nobody will take the time to think it through" I like the interview with Liberman much better. Even though he is a liberal, he is reasonable and you can have a conversation with him.

The war may be over, but to be fair, a bullet fired by the resistance is just as deadly as one fired by a soldier from the other side. I see no difference. We are there, and will be there a long time unless we want to see total chaos. And the longer we are there, the more animosity there will be, with us perceived as occupiers.

Our folks are doing many great things over there, at the lowest levels...helping to actually construct facilites and repair damage while keeping vigilant for those stray bullets. Makes it difficult to wield a hammer when the other hand can't let go of a rifle.

As to Moore.....How is he different than the authors of all the "streching the truth" books written recently by the right? The difference may be that Moore is smarter since his efforts have received more publicity and royalties. Both sides have their spinmeisters, profiting off the death and suffering of others, increasing the degree of hate and mistrust. Civil wars have been fought over less divisive situations than what we have right now.

I really am amused at the "rightious indignation" of one side while they wink and shrug when asked about their just-under-the line libelous and slanderous attacks against the "enemy".

Like I asked before and NO ONE had the cajones to respond: Since when do we refer to fellow Americans with whom we disagree as "enemies"?

And which side does this more often? Shall we start reposting some of the more virulent comments?

And we have how many more weeks before this mutual madness is over?

Get over it, dude.:cool: If you put your hand in a swamp and an alligator tried to take your arm off, would you pull your hand out of the pond, or would you ask the alligator to please stop biting? ;)

well, he's a leftie so he'd probably apologize to the alligator for invading his space.

Americans now realize that they are no longer isolated by from the realities of the rest of the world by the open oceans and, ofcourse, many are afraid. The knee-jerk reaction is to go and kick-some-ass and destroy the people who did this, maybe take out a few neighboring countries in the process and dispose of some annoying figure heads too. When we're done kicking-butt and have exhausted all our money and resources, and maybe had a few thousand of our troops die, maybe then we'll come to terms with the real problems that face us:
- The oceans do not isolate us from the problems of the world
- Constant fear of an enemy will not keep you safe
- Disenfranchised people, of any race or religion, will fight against what they see as a threat.

The rest of the planet has come to terms with these realities, and soon so shall America.

So MichMat, you work at UC Berkely?

No way dude, those people are freaks.

Denis,

I can personally guarantee you that not one of our soldiers, sailors, airmen or Marines was sent to Iraq "to die" On the contrary, I would almost go so far as saying that each one of them was instructed NOT to die. Unfortunately, for friends and family of the military person, death is not alwasy avoidable. Still, I would say that nobody was sent there with the expressed intent for them to die.

I'm not making light of the passing of ANY military person. Each one has my utmost gratitude and respect. They've earned it. I just can't seem to express it enough that each one of these people that paid the ultimate sacrifice with full knowledge that it could happen to them.

Each military member is taught The Code of Conduct for US Armed Service personel. There are 6 Articles, the first of which reads, "I am an American, serving in the forces which guard my country. I am prepared to give my life in it's defense."

Now, you speak of the war in Iraq as being unnecessary, but I beg to differ with you. Part of the reason for the 9/11 Commission was to determine what, if anything, could have been done to prevent 9/11 from happening. Looking back, it was fairly easy to see what we SHOULD have done, and which administration should have done it. As is often stated, hindsight is 20/20.

If GWB, or whoever you would rather have had in office at that time, had the gift of foresight, 9/11 most certainly would have been avoided. Taking this war to the Mid-East just might possibly be the reason there has been no further attacks here in the US. If you look at all the gaping flaws in our airport seurity system, even today, it would seem obvious that something like 9/11 could possibly happen again.

Having our troops in the middle of the Mid-East draws a lot of attention there. What do you think is more disturbing to the radical islamic terrorist: having the United States sitting half-way around the world, full of infidel Americans that don't deserve to live, or having thousands of those same Americans right in their own backyard....in the promised land?

Our people are there doing the job they have been trained to do...engaging the enemy. IMHO, it is much better for the US and those affected by us, to have that engagement occurring on foreign soil. Imagine what it would be like if we were engaging them here in the States.

Randy

Well Randy, I respect you for your service, (and because you are a great guy), but I disagree with the strategy of invading Iraq. The actual people who had to do it, (soldiers and Marines), are for the most part the most honorable of all of the players in this whole mess though, IMO.

And FWIW, I am not a huge Moore fan but I do not believe that he has contempt for service members. Just my opinion. Some of the biggest liberals in congress have been the biggest friends that vets have had, like the late Senator Paul Wellstone from my home state Minnesota. :cool:

Ahhhh, Denis, again we find something we agree upon. The service members, for the most part, ARE some of the most honorable people I have ever known. Your respect for them is appreciated.

Also, I don't believe I ever said that MM had any contempt for servicemembers. To the contrary, I believe he probably is concerned about them being in harms way.

My problem with MM is my own perception of how he twists truth and fact to fit his own agenda. That's not to say he's got that market cornered. there are plenty of people like that to go around, on both sides of the aisle.

Speeder, you'r a great guy, and I have a lot of respect for you, but I believe that you have contempt for our servicemembers.

"...when they signed up for the free education they agreed to fight in any war..." paints all military personnel as money-grubbing morons, too foolish to recognize the inevitable death as the consequences of their actions. It demonstrates a complete ignorance for the vast majority of us who signed up to do this thing not for the money but because we love our country. Tell just one young sailor, 19 years old, working the flightline to the point of exhaustion for the umpteenth week in a row that's he's just in it for the money. Let me know what happens. I could introduce you to one of the platoons of US Marines who guard our nuclear weapons -- tell that crowd what you seem to think of our military, please, let me know what happens. Heck, even the submariners, who get paid more than most... Find me one department head even, reeling in a whopping $95K with his dual-master's degrees and 10 years of high-intensity leadership experience, working yet another 100hr underway work week who'll tell you he's in this job for the money, for the "free education."

So forgive me if I find your positive opinion on MM a little biased.

Dan

The GI Bill is probably one of the few perks upon which military personnel can openly boast. Let's also not forget guys like Pat Tillman or the little fellow who used to cut my neighbor's yard. He joined the Armed Forces shortly after 9/11. I doubt it was for the money or prestige...

Dan, I'm sorry if my "free education" remark came off as disrespectful, that was not my intention. I'll try again, very carefully: I believe that many young people sign up for military service for the opportunities that it provides, including the education, but I also believe that they more than pay for these benefits w/ their service.

Are the vast majority of them Patriotic and wanting to serve their country? Without a doubt. Realistically, though, in peacetime many, (most?), volunteers probably consider their service a fair trade-off for the benefits, and I agree that they, (you), deserve all of them and more. (That's the liberal in me, we are always for increasing vet's benefits). ;)

There are many different types of people, as you know, in the service. People who enlist in the Marine Corps. or Army infantry it is safe to say might want to "see some action" more than other jobs in the military. I don't want to babble on and accidentally offend, so I'll quit now and just say Thank You for your service and I would never disrespect service members face-to-face or otherwise. :cool:

Actually. Bryan, I am not surprised at your answer. It only proves my point...attack the individual, not the issue.

And, as for others: For your information, labelling me as a liberal is an assumprion on your part. I am neither liberal or conservative; I refuse to march lockstep with any ideology. Try it some day. It might make for more interesting dialogue if you (a) had an original idea and (b) tried a little civility. So many of you on both sides of the spectrum live in your own little worlds with no experience in government. If you know all the answers, volunteer yourself to the party officials. I sure they could profit from your unbound expertise.

Honest, the attacks become more personal, more strident and more desperate.

As I suspected, not one rationale for caloing another American an "enemy"...Intellectual bankruptcy.