K, wait a second was it not ten years ago that the military of a European country (Italy ?) was looking for a side arm where parts were 100% interchangeable. In other words, about 25 pistols were disassembled and the parts were mixed and placed in seperate bins. They had to be reassembled with these mixed parts and work or else they manufacturer was disqualified. I beleive a Spanish brand was the winner. Now if Colt or any other manufacturer is not hand fitted does that mean they could pass this test? Am I misinterpreting the terminology?

I'll look up the Paterson story this weekend. It's in one of my reference books.

I love my 1911's (have two). I reguarly shoot a Para 14-45 that has a few small things done to it. Love that damn thing! Once I'm worthy I'd love to build up one of 'em.

I'm getting my 1911 learn on here. Pelican is good..


rjp

My CE is my favorite. It's just all there. To me it's the best combination of ergonimics, stopping power, accuracy and reliability.

Curious on picks for the best concealable....but that's another thread.

Yes and given a few minutes I could come up with two or three exceptional 1911s from that original group of 25. But that still isn't hand fitting and exactly how Colt has built "custom" guns over the years. The 1911 didn't play for several reasons. The most important is it is not 9mm friendly by design (the required caliber) and not a high cap (also required) as originally designed.

The most expensive rifles are custom pieces built to order by riflesmiths, always have been. The most expensive handguns are built to order by custom pistolsmiths, always have been.

Modern guns (post 1850) by definition are mass produced with interchangable parts. Colt invented the production line, Henry Ford just copied it. Firearms started the industrial revolution.

A Porsche 911 was hand built but has interchangable parts. A 917 was also done in a similar fashion. Guess which ones takes more effort hand fitting and finishing and rewards the owner in additional performance?

Your right about the increasing of the tolerences of the 1911 to 1911A1, Worn tooling and lack of reinvestment in the physical plant did cause a detoriation in the quality of the product...

OK then why did Colt go from the High Polish Blue of the 1913 1911's to the Charcoal Blue of the 1914 guns..and wasn't that a cheaper process because it was less labor intensive...it was small changes over time to save on the cost of labour etc that caused a decline in the quality of the product...

It was in some respects like the car business...before WW2 you could buy a Packard from the Custom shop and after WW2 there was no more custom shop...at Packard.

I further wouldn't peg the demise of quality in guns at 1950...at Colt it was more like the late 1970's...as well as Smith and Wesson in the early 1980's....Winchester in 1964 when it changed hands...HOwever quality is not dead if you want to pay for it....

AHHHG...Yes a gun built by a Custom Gunmaker is more expensive.....It is a quality thing.... But to a collector....

You can buy and AO Neidner 300 H&H Target rifle from the 30's for 1595.00....Yet a Winchester Model 70 Target in the same caliber from the same era will cost 3K+..... G&H has a Neidner on his web site. One is a custom rifle from one of the best and the other is a production rifle.....

My personal piece, Kimber stainless ultra-carry II

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1092342447.jpg

Very nice!

Detonics....Combat Master...

Thanks Rick, I love it. It's my first hand gun. I must say I was shocked at the volume of a .45 blast! Ear protection is a must:)

Nice blaster lendaddy! .45 isnt too bad if you lengthen the barrel a little bit :)

Reliable in what way? I'm not being a smartass, just looking for info(I'm a newbie). I assume you mean accuracy, in which case I would agree. Thought it is plenty fine for a body-of-mass shot inside 5-10 yards:) My father has this one, and it is much easier to control.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1092343888.jpg

I would suggest that the 911 and the 1911 are both designs that are so right that improvement would require a total redesign. I don't consider the 996 an improved 911, for me it's a new car and, in my terms at least not an improvement; similarly I don't think a double action 1911 is an improvement.

Oh yes, I think my Detonics Scorfemaster rules! (With assistance from my Sig 210!)

Referring to my comment?

It is not an accuracy issue. Although the longer sight radius of a 5" is easier to shoot well.

The 1911 design is very reliable for functioning in a 5" format as originally designed. As you shorten and slide you change the timing on the gun. The 4.25 is very reliable although less so than a 5". The Kimber 4" cone barrel has proven to be very reliable also. Anything less than 4" is generally considered less than reliable, because of functioning problems, as a combat or personal defensive handgun by professionals. The most reliable and commonly accepted "small guns" by professionals are jframe S&W revolvers and now the Kahr.

Really U mean my cased Rigby....ON the cover of Standard Catalog of Firearms, 2000 edition, and the stock picture in the text.. is worth something? Nooo....

I am fully aware of the condition issue..and realized I should have made note that condition effects value...but don't want to start down that slippery slope right now. One argument at a time.

Our differences are mostly semantic...Purdey, H&H, Rigby and G&H all make the jump as recognized collectable guns...but for the most part if you spend $$$$$ for a custom gun it is hard to recoup your money.....For years guys were spending fortunes on 1911's customizing them and when it came time to sell they couldn't get their investment back...

I have a friend that dropped 30K on a repro Sharps 1877 finished by Steven Dodd Hughs and in his book BTW...now for that money (at the time) you can go and buy an orginal if you could find one...now which one has more potential of rising in value the real one or the memorix that actually better than the orginal in quality?

Now I suppose there is a micro market that I am not aware of that deals in Custom 1911's. That I havn't heard about?

U didn't answer my question about the pre 1913 colts and the post 1914 Colts...and the change in finish...less time ws spent doing it doing it after 1913...thus quality went down ever so slightly...Take a look at a Parker Shotgun of 1912 which is production and comapre it against the Rigby of the same vintage... let's leave engraving out of the equation, as the quality becomes very subjective as it is an art form on to itself. Both guns exhibit a high degree of quality and as time goes on the custom gun still retains thaat quality while the production gun slips... During that 1900 to 1917 or so period the custom and better quality production guns are the closest ever in quality...

Now lets take on engraving for a moment...quality of the artist is paramont....I made a mistake in telling a friend that had a 4" Prewar Colt Woodsman that was factory engraved and had a name engraved on it that it was worth 4K. I based my opinion on the fact that non factory engraved (let's assume = quality engraving...if U asked me the factory engraving on the woodsman wasn't the best I've seen). woodsman were going for 1500.00 at a big Midwest auction of prewar Colts of similar condition...Faintich... Turns out my friends Woodsman iwas worth more in the 10K + range due to it having a name engraved on it....Now there is a prime example of factory vs non factory on a presentation level gun..

Also rarirty and or condition doesn't mean a dam thing with regards to price if the gun isn't desirable....Merlin and Hubert vs Colt is a good example...all things being equal or Remington vs Colt...the Colt are always morte expensive why desirabilty everybody knows the name Colt .....but Merlin and Hubert??? Whats that... or Metropolitian which made copies of Colts...much cheaper than the real deal...Now Confederate copies of the Colt ohhh much more expensive than the Colt...why desirabiity and rarity.

Milu is your 210 a dash 6....

Thanks Rdane, that makes sense, though I never thought of it. I have never had a mis-load with mine, but I wonder what a "bad" ration would be. One out of a thousand?