911 and 1911

[rdane]

40 years is an amazing amount of time for a single car design to still be in production. But sadly, as we all know, the 997 isn't really the same design as 40 years ago. That design was left behind around '88/'89.

But there is another 911...well 1911 design (originally designed in 1908 to be exact) that is still state of the art.

Like the 911s many of us have built from 70's 911s, the sum of the parts often provide a higher level of performance than the originals. But the design has stayed true to the original 911.

With very little change the basic 1911 is still the current state of the art in handguns. Like a 911 it will give a attentive and skilled owner the performance that nothing else to date can.

A 1927 A1


same design with a change to R rubber.





J. M. Browning's original design has been manufactured from 1910 to date without interuption. That is 94 years with no changes! It appears it will go on for another 50 years at least.

[RickM]

Ahh, yes....nice.

Here's my personal favorite: Colt Combat Elite

[rdane]

CE? Nice piece and one of my favorites as well!

[tabs]

Ohhhh I love this topic....I have a couple of 911's including 1911's.....

Actually the Colt 1911 dates back to 1900...1902...1905....1911 models...John Browning was the designer..his very last design was for the Browning High Power in 1935...

The US military adopted the Colt 1911 in 1912 and was the designated sidearm until the 1980's when the Berreta 92 became the sidearm of the US military.

The Colt 1911 has been collectable for over 40 years...in the past 5 or 6 years they really have taken off in value....with some of the rarer variations bringing well over 10K......

the first 4500, Colt 1911's had a very bright blue finish on it...those guns are extremely sought after... I saw one for sale in the orginal box for 18K.... A near new WW1 era 1911 is worth in the 3k to 4K range, Pre WW2 National Matches in near new condition bring over 5K, Pre WW2 38 Super Matches can bring over 10K, and pre Series 70 Gold Cups bring 1750 NIB,....Then there are the extreme rarities...the Singer manufactured 1911A1 and the North Amercan 1911....Those guns will bring what the market will bear...40K to 100K?????

Many manufactureres have made copies of the 1911..most of them under military contracts in both WW1 and WW2. Starting in I guess the 1970's the 1911 was tricked out by various custom gun makers for target or combat shooting matches, and it currently enjoys alot of popularity.

[tabs]

BTW NOne of the pictures shown so far are of guns that are older than 20 years old....The one that is posted as the orginal is a 1911A1...and is of recent manufacture....it does have the WW1 1911 brushed Blue military style finish. however the serial number has a "C" prefix before the number denoting it as a commercial gun vs military...

[rdane]

The blued Colt first pictured is a 1927 pre NM gun in 99% and about as rare as a Colt gets. The finish is a high polished blue. Less than a a couple dozen have been documented to date. Even fewer are still known to exist.
If you were well versed in Colt you would have realised the date of manufacture from the serial number.

The second 2 are early to mid 1970's guns as you can easily see from the serial numbers and roll markings. Those guns are now 30 some years old.

The last two ( the staibless and CE) are obviously Series 80 guns ( a major design change on the 1911 BTW) and produced in the late 80's.

All the guns but the 1927 NM gun are recent, best grade, custom 1911s based on Colt frames and slides. Think of them as something like BBII

Colt offered custom 1911s from the start of manufacture. By the mid 1920's there was already a cottage industry modifying and customising the 1911 for higher preformance. By the early 1930s 1911 pistolsmithing for performance was a healthy industry.

While Browning did a number of designs for Colt previous to the 1911. The GI model 1911's design is clearly traced to the 1908 prototypes.

Here is a 1917 example:

That would be a expensive paint job on a 911.

Two more from the 1920's

[tabs]

Yeah your right I don't know anything about them...
First the blue on the gun from the picture looks to be dull, like the brushed blue of the WW1 military contracts.

Second I can see the C prefix, but not the rest of the serial number...This was a mistake on my part....they used the C prefix until 1970...but recently they have reintroduced the WW1 Military as a ????? commerative for lack of a better term.

The markings on the middle two I can't make out from the picture...and the bottom one is a series 80?


The 1908 protype was just a variation of the Colt model 1905..which was the first 45 ACP auto....The 1900 and 1902's were 38 auto caliber, everything after the 1900 were improvments resulting in the 1911.

Now for your 1911A1 pre NM... have you obtained a factory letter...as it would have been a special order gun....Other wise it looks just like a standard 1911A1 of the era...

[tabs]

Are the picture of the 1911's on the wood chips yur guns?

[island911]

Originally posted by rdane
. . . .you would have realised the date of manufacture from the serial number.

. . .. as you can easily see from the serial numbers . .

Yeah. . .easily.

I'm impressed tabs could make out the "C"

[rdane]

Tabs, I didn't say you were unknowledgable, just correcting your assumptions.

And yes, the majority of my guns are indeed lettered by Colt. All the photography as well as the subjects are mine.

"easy?"

Island in my circles there is enough showing in each photo that calling an original a repro is like calling a '69t, a 996. Better to stay silent or ask a question than declare ignorance by assumption.

Just thought it would be fun to show a couple of photos and make the comparison of 911 to 1911. Anyone that wants to argue any point on 1911s or their history try
www.pistolsmith.com. I am sure there are people there willing to engage in a discussion on the subject

more please

[tabs]

Originally posted by rdane

If you were well versed in Colt you would have realised the date of manufacture from the serial number.

:

That would be a expensive paint job on a 911.

Based upon the first statement of not being well versed....it might be taken that I didn't know anything...

Ohhh your too modest about it only costing the price of a good paint job...

There really wasn't too much need to make the thing into a NM...they were basically hand built guns to begin with.

The last thing I bought was Springfield 1903 HB International match rifle of the 1922 type it letters to SRS.

[RickM]

Tabs knows his stuff. Just a bit tough when seeing something for the first time on the net. After all rd you're pretty familiar with those beautiful pistols.

Question: When several manufacturers were being considered along with the Colt wasn't there a manufacturer by the name of Paterson whose test pistols were lost while being delivered to the test site?

[rcm]

rdane, nice pics. 1911 best ccw made. Thanks for the history.

by the way, seats are in and look great.

[rdane]

"hand built"

Not really. The majority of hand work that went into Colt pistols was in cosmetic finish work. The 1911 was never hand built by Colt..then or now. Not the NM guns or the engraved guns.

Many of the SAAs were indeed handbuilt in the term that you mean I believe. Either way, enjoy the pictures.

Paterson?

Got me on that one. I know Savage stayed in the longest. Quick search of my reference material shows the following as early considerations for the 1909 testing:
Mauser, Vidmer, Steyr, Webley, Hungary Small Arms, S&W, Merrill, Meuller, Luger, Louis, H&R, Vitali, Ross, Savage and of course Colt. Many of these manufacturees never actually offered samples to test however. 8 manufactures presented weapons for the intial tests at Springfield Armory.

[tabs]

Not familar with Patterson...

Savage had a prototype 45 ACP....Dave Buehen had one

Luger submmitted at least 2 45 Acps...one was beat to death testing it ...the other I've seen at a gun show...it's worth 1M ++++

[Shuie]

Oh, this is nice. I like this. Great thread.

[tabs]

Your telling me there wasn't hand fitting in the prewar 1911's????

Tolerences were very tight on all the pre WW2 guns....I would even venture to say a straight outa the box WW1 military 1911 could outshoot a 1980's NM (Gold Cup).

The old story about Colt and Smith and Wesson manufacturing of the prewar guns was that if it didn't pass Quality control the guy had to stay and make it right on his own time....that meant they did it right the first time....

Except for the modern steel and design the best made guns were built from 1900 apx through 1917...Americas entry into WW1. The fit and finish was second to none.

[Shuie]

Tabby, you are a knowledgeable guy when it comes to firearms. Seriously though, there is nobody on the planet that knows more about Colt 1911's or how they were/are built than the guy who started this thread.

[tabs]

A I said I own several 911's including 1911's and have read most of the pertinent literature on the early Colt autos including the 1911....but ithey are not the focus of what I collect...So just on that pistol I am not an expert by any means..thats why I didn't dispute his 1927 NM assertion...it was either special order or it was a put together by a gun smith...

Unfortunately if put together by a gun smith it has less value than if by the factory...However the quality is there. I collect as a sideline Pre WW2 Officers Model Target revolvers....they came basically in 38, 32 and 22. They were handfitted guns whose actions are very smooth. I especially like the King Gun works of San Francisco, which were after market modifications. I have a 32 OMT that has the Colt King Super Conversion...the 32 is relativily rare and with the conversion it might be one of just a handfull...yet because King guns aren't readily recognized by main stream collectors the value isn't there.