Generally those who have been through it don't judge others so harshly, but OT is full of armchair quarterbacks who've watched a lot of Chuck Norris movies.

It's funny, but if you go back to the election of 1960, the Republicans tried to discredit (the original) JFK's service.

I hate to break it to you Jason, but you are largely a legend in your own mind in this respect.

I watched this interview and the article misrepresents it. Odell said he was a witness and had seven other witnesses. The interviewer insisted that he must have proof (a picture or government document). Of course he didn't have that kind of proof. Only Kerry made videos...and they were staged. It is his word against Kerry's. And we know Kerry cannot tell the truth.

I agree, except I think the headline misprepresents the article (I read this yesterday and I think Odell's position is clear).

Odell's recollection was based on what? Intently observing what was going on on another boat across the river?

Funny that everyone who was actually on Kerry's boat supports the official report. No, come to think of it, it isnt that funny at all.

Video has surfaced of George Elliott in 1996 testifying to John Kerry's leadership in Swift Boart actions. I believe he's on stage with Adm. Zumwalt, who also appeared for Kerry.

George is, of course the SBVfT who originally nominated Kerry for a Bronze star. Elliott cites Kerry's 'bravery, loyalty, moral courage.'

It just gets funnier and funnier.

I agree Cam. Thay are playing to the folks that do not read past the first paragraph.

In the interview, Odell was asked why no one complained about Kerry's medals at the time. He said that they did not know Kerry had put himself in for them..they had not seen anything particulary heroic and never suspected. Kerry did not receive the medals until later.

LOL.

Kerry was 'put in' for the medal on April 1, 1969 by George Elliott.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0820041kerry1.html

Elliot submitted the medal based on a false "after action" report by Kerry according to the other officers...

Why was the citation written and signed in 1986?....or at least the last version.

You consider "the smoking gun" a reliable source?

I guess you could ask the other two guys who got Bronze stars from the same action whether there was shooting going on. Thurlow thought so... until 35 years later when he whored himself out to the Bushies.

The Smoking Gun is highly reliable, as is spinsanity.com.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1093321582.jpg

What is he hiding and why did he lie about attrocities, Cambodia and Nixon?...Why did he throw his medals away and then lie about doing so?...Why did he join an organization who plotted the assassination of sitting Senators?

Why doesn't he just release his full record and be done with it?

Give him a call, tech...Get him to sign the form 180.

Lets be real for a second, shall we tech, you don't like Kerry one bit, you just need to provide cover for him to mask/accomplish your real motivation...hating Bush.

how about casting an eyeball on his '70s FBI folder ?

I wonder if it's in the Abie Hoffman section ?

Mul, you can repeat it endlessly, but Kerry's records are on his web site, apparently a difficult mouse click for you.

More records by a factor of 10 than GWB has (because his have somehow 'gone missing').

Atrocities were committed throughout our conflict in Vietnam. People I know committed them and talked about it. Other people committed them and didn't talk about it. If all you know about Vietnam is what you see in Hollywood movies, you should really talk to some vets. BTW, war is hell.

The US had operations in Cambodia before 1970. This is well known to most anyone who looks into it. If Kerry was 5 miles from the Cambodian border, or over it, who cares? At least he was in the theater of operations, not drinking with his buddies back home.

Excellent post, Mul.

SO how 'bout it tech? Just because Kerry has released MORE paperwork (as you say) hardly means he has released ALL HIS RECORDS.

Dare I say, Mul NAILED your game.

There are enough "missing records" to keep the mills grinding on both sides.

Get over it. Our economy is not good, another recession may be on the horizon. Who can get us back on track? So far, I have heard nothing from the Bush camp on how to take care of the domestic problems except a patchwork of vague ideas. Same for the Kerry side, although I think the Senator is a bit more fiscally astute.

And here, in our little microcosm, I see written a lot of insults and sarcasms but little in actual platform construct. Could it be that supporters blindly follow the leadership and hope that somehow things will get better? Come on. Give concrete stands from the two camps. Compare them. Have such proposals been tried before? Have they worked? If not, why trot them out again?

I would like to think there is enough intelligence on this BB that could rationally compare and contrast positions without resorting to the insults and sarcasm, both of which are clear indications of no position at all.

To those who try to engage in rational exchange, thanks. To the rest,a pox on all your houses.

Oh, I see. . . these records are "missing" . . that's why Kerry won't release them. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I get it. . .you're saying "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. . . .(let me tell you why you should hate bush)"

hmmm. . .what was the next line?. . . maybe. . "get this dog off of me"

So, why doesn't Kerry just sign the release form?

FAIRLY EASY TO FOOL PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN TO VIETNAM,DURING THE WAR AS COMBAT PERSONNEL. AT THE TIME IT WAS NOT A VERY POPULAR VOCATION, NOW ALOT OF PRETENDERS......

Island..Read the rest of the post and then comment.

Both sides have yet to "come clean" .

I've never seen Mul nail anyone's game. Half the time, he doesn't even seem to comprehend the quotes he pastes. When I ask him a direct question, he usually responds with a cartoon.

He has never said which records he thinks are missing. I've pointed him to Kerry's web site at least three times, and I see no evidence he's ever done his homework.

What records do you think you need to see? You support a guy who jumped over 150 more qualified applicants to get a highly coveted TANG slot and then failed to maintain his flying status. Who may or may not have shown up for the last year of his duty, whose records are almost nonexistent possibly thanks to people helping hid 'embarrassing' items) and whose awards are completely nonexistent.

But you're anxious to see WHAT records from John Kerry's tour in Vietnam?

And just between us, WTF difference would these so-called 'necessary records' you're so deperate to see prove to you? Will they allow you to vote for Kerry?

I'm with ya, man. I stayed stateside, but lost quite a few friends there -- guys I trained with. We got a book in AIT, it was called 'the Vietnam Book' and it had information about tunnels, punji sticks, bouncing bettys... I saw the wind go out of a lot of guys' sails when that book got cracked.

The Washington Post (I know, I know - they're left of Stalin and biased all to hell, broken record) have a pretty long and (IMHO) relatively balanced review of the situation:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html

I wonder what the point is. The supposed records will never satisfy the haters -- especially those who imagine that Kerry wrote his own award nominations and battle accounts despite them having somebody else's initials on them.

The preponderance of evidence is on Kerry's side, but the haters doubt each new voice in turn (see the comment about Rood's bank account).

No, this won't be resolved with a debate about the facts. It's more like a religion to the Kerry haters.

That is incorrect. I just checked the Kerry site and there is nothing new posted. Bush released almost twice as many pages of records than Kerry. Count them.

Bush released all his records
Kerry will refuses to sign a release for any of his records..he has selected the ones he wants to be seen and posted them

Many witnesses say Kerry is lying about his records
No witnesses say Bush is lying about his.

Why was Kerry's silver star citation rewritten in 1986? How many of his other records were also rewritten.

Simple question for you, Fintstone, just so I know where you're coming from. (Like I need to ask). :rolleyes:

Here goes anyways: Do you have any problem w/ Bush using family connections (that I assume would not be available to you), to jump the line for the Texas ANG and avoid serving in Viet Nam, then thumb his nose at his ANG obligations and get a sympathetic official to, A) release him early from the guard, and B) excuse his absences during the last year, and C) destroy all records that demonstrate that he was AWOL during that time??

The evidence of the above is overwhelming compared to the Swift Boat scumbag charges, just wondering if you hold Bush to the same standard, (or any standard).

You guys are mystifying to me. :cool:

Part of the problem, according to comments on CNN and CNBC, is that there are no individuals who remember GWB being on duty during some of the times in question. Why the service records of two young fellows who have "moved on" from their younger and less responsible days are so important, I will never figure out. There are far more important things than events long past. The economy, unemployment, outsourcing, medical costs, and much more.

Weenie, any way you spin it this fact remains: If Kerry was proud of what was in his records he'd wallpaper the plane with them. No way to say that his refusal to release them is anything but an attempt to cover his a$$.

I guess GW was not politically motivated enough to go buy a movie camera and reenact his service for future use. Maybe he was too busy having a good time (like most 20 year olds) to write himself up for a bunch of phoney medals. Maybe Bush should hire a bunch of vets to travel around with him and make up war stories where he is the hero too.

Kerry is like the guy in your high school band that you run in to years later who has convinced all his new friends that he was the star quarterback.

The only reason that this is an issue is because it is all that Kerry has...other than he "is not Bush."

Are you proposing that Bush's dad, the WWII veteran, would approve of cowardice in his own son?...What proof do you have that he "jumped the line?"...Do you realize that Bush's father was running the CIA?...That means he would be susceptible to black-mail if he was captured...Do you understand this?
Could you substantiate the above crock of crap?...No, not left-wing propaganda sites...(since when do you libs care about military service?...things change since Clinton?)
Bush released his records...Kerry has not...Kerry got caught in several obvious lies...Bush did not.

Bush on the other hand probably WAS on the football team (etc) and was one of the jocks who treated the uncool people like crap.

Wrong..

He could be promoting his past voting record.

He could be promoting his future Iraq policy. Which means he'll have to elaborate on his presently spoken withdrawal.

He started this whole 'Nam bs and now he wants Bush to complete it. Uh Hello Kerry, wake up, wake up.

The post is about fuzzy memories -- seared -- seared...

From a John Kerry speech commemorating Martin Luther King Day, Jan. 20, 2003:

I remember well April 1968--I was serving in Vietnam--a place of violence--when the news reports brought home to me and my crewmates the violence back home--and the tragic news that one of the bullets flying that terrible spring took the life of that unabashedly maladjusted citizen.

In fact, Kerry did not go to Vietnam until November 1968.

http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=4724&keyword=seared&ph rase=&contain=

-wsj opinion journal 25-August-2004

1) Absolutely, he (George Sr.) helped him get in the guard. (With plausible deniability, of course). :rolleyes:

2)His score on the NG entrance exam would not have qualified him w/o strings being pulled. This assertion has never even been challenged by Bush/his campaign/White House, it is immutable fact. WTF have you been??

3) Bush's father was not "running the CIA" until years after this, genius. Do you understand this? :rolleyes:

4)Yes I can substantiate all of this, try the mainstream, (accountable), press for a change. I'd be happy to provide documentation for you, but there will be a substantial "research fee" for my time. ;)

5)Bush released all of his records once it was assured that the crucial "proof" that he fulfilled his obligation in the final 2 years had been "lost", (this is where having a Dad running the CIA years later might have come in handy), ;) , how about one human being on earth who recalls him serving? That person does not exist, because Bush wasn't there.

And Fintstone, it's pretty hard to win medals drinking in bars in the South, even w/ family connections. :cool:

And Bush is the jock frontin' like he was captain of the debate team, all the while people actually doubt if he attented class regularly past 8th grade.

Clinton had Vince Foster murdered (with plausible deniability, of course)
John Kerry joined the Navy expressely to avoid service in combat.
I stand corrected...However, Lyndon Johnson's ineptitude running a war prevented GW from seeing Vietnam...Had Johnson called Bush for service, then-and-only-then, would you have an issue of AWOL here...otherwise it is bullcrap with no facts (what Democrats do best)
Where are you living?...on the Good Ship Lolly Pop?

Boston Globe, 6/16/2003: ........"I didn't really want to get involved in the war,"

"When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing." -- John Kerry


Obviously John Kerry's record illustrates he did EXACTLY what Bush is implied to have done...Namely AVOID service by joining the Navy.


So why won't the Vietcong defense attorney release his 4 month military record?...It really cannot be that hard...Something to hide perhaps?

So you're now suggesting that volunteering and going to Vietnam for 9/10 months is equivalent to joining the National Guard and staying stateside?

Wow.

Mul

Part of the problem is that all these accusations put together stop making sense.

Apparently Kerry chose the Swift Boats because:

a) they were safe and wouldn't see combat; AND
b) they were a good place to go and:
(i) earn medals (spuriously) by getting shot at;
(ii) film himself being "courageous" after the fact (after actually being shot at);
(iii) find out what war was really like so he could lie about vets.

Another example is the SBVs accusing Kerry of:

(a) faking his medals, then cutting and running (by applying for the 3 purple hearts and your out category) when he got three; AND
(b) that he was told to leave because he was a menace.

You gotta choose one of these, not two.

Personally, I find the accusations surrounding the Silver Star the most odious (and the most damaging to the SBV credibility).

They somehow try and paint this situation as:

a) not brave
b) not exceptional, but at the same time...
c) reckless and needlessly endangering his crew

I've read the report, I've read the Swift Boat Vets "rebuttal". I definitely believe Kerry on this one.

Fellas....Fellas.....

By now you should realize there are different planes of reality.

And simple answers to every situation

not to mention "saying it makes it so".

To some, facts are something to be either ignored or massaged to fit the individual's case.

You will never win against such a devious and closed mind. There is not enough WD40 in the world to undo those rusty hinges......

Why not?...Kerry obviously (based on his accounts) joined the Navy because it was the cushy route...He expected to see no combat. He realized as a Lieutenant he could write his own heroism and he did (as confirmed by veterans who didn't cut-and-run).

He had an agenda that is abundantly obvious by his obsession with JFK, his modeling of JFK's Navy service, and his immediate run for political office upon his return from Vietnam after his brief stay...At the same time his peers considered him dangerous and self-serving and they provided him the knowledge to get out...Heros don't run from service, or bristle their compatriots...Traitors do...He did.
Cam...surely you are not relying on Kerry's website as the clearing house for objectivity, are you?...Recently taken down from Kerry's website was this lie..

John Kerry is an Experienced Leader in the Intelligence Field – John Kerry served on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence for 8 years and is the former Vice Chairman of the Committee. Kerry joined the Committee in early 1993 and served until early 2001.

So, you have a couple choices here...(1) John "Wil-E-Coyote" Kerry "super genius" cannot manage his own website for accuracy, or John Kerry is a pathological liar? (remember Kerry's presumptive National Security Advisor was busted stealing records from the 9/11 Commission investigation).

That said, let's desist from citing Kerry or Kerry friendly websites for sound information, okay?...Why doesn't Kerry just release his records?
So, how is the marijuana in New Zealand?...You pull from a bong or do you prefer a joint?