Another Swift Boat combat memory turns fuzzy.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by flyenby
HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE EVER BEEN IN COMBAT OR A FIREFIGHT??????

Generally those who have been through it don't judge others so harshly, but OT is full of armchair quarterbacks who've watched a lot of Chuck Norris movies.

It's funny, but if you go back to the election of 1960, the Republicans tried to discredit (the original) JFK's service.

[CamB]

Originally posted by Mulholland
Some one has to stay home and beat the living BS outta of communists and other socialist miscreants (see Democrats)...It is a job I happen to be good at.

I hate to break it to you Jason, but you are largely a legend in your own mind in this respect.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by LynnsABCs
U.S. National - Reuters

Vietnam Vet Says Has No Proof for Claim Kerry Lied

Sun Aug 22, 7:08 PM ET Add U.S. National - Reuters to My Yahoo!

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A veteran who disputed Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry (news - web sites)'s Vietnam war record acknowledged on Sunday he had no proof to back his charge that Kerry fabricated the reports of enemy fire that won him two medals.

Speaking on "Fox News Sunday," Van Odell, a member of the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that has spearheaded a campaign against Kerry's service record, said his was one of seven eyewitness accounts and he was not being directed by President Bush (news - web sites)'s campaign.

He has charged that then Navy Lt. Kerry, a Swift boat commander, fabricated the "after-action" report saying he faced enemy fire on March 13, 1969, for which he was awarded the Bronze Star and his third Purple Heart for being wounded while pulling a fellow soldier to safety.

"I do not have a single document," Odell said. "I have the fact that I wasn't wounded in that 5,000 meters of fire that he wrote about."

"There was no enemy fire from either bank," he added.

The assertion was another broadside in a debate that has been raging for weeks, and with at least one CBS poll showing the issue cutting into Kerry's support among veterans, the Massachusetts senator has accused the group of collaborating with the Bush campaign and demanded Bush repudiate the ads.

Odell said he had met with Republican strategist Merrie Spaeth, a public relations consultant to his group, and once bought a home from Bob Perry, a large Republican donor from Texas and close associate of Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser.

I watched this interview and the article misrepresents it. Odell said he was a witness and had seven other witnesses. The interviewer insisted that he must have proof (a picture or government document). Of course he didn't have that kind of proof. Only Kerry made videos...and they were staged. It is his word against Kerry's. And we know Kerry cannot tell the truth.

[CamB]

I agree, except I think the headline misprepresents the article (I read this yesterday and I think Odell's position is clear).

[techweenie]

Odell's recollection was based on what? Intently observing what was going on on another boat across the river?

Funny that everyone who was actually on Kerry's boat supports the official report. No, come to think of it, it isnt that funny at all.

[techweenie]

Video has surfaced of George Elliott in 1996 testifying to John Kerry's leadership in Swift Boart actions. I believe he's on stage with Adm. Zumwalt, who also appeared for Kerry.

George is, of course the SBVfT who originally nominated Kerry for a Bronze star. Elliott cites Kerry's 'bravery, loyalty, moral courage.'

It just gets funnier and funnier.

[fintstone]

I agree Cam. Thay are playing to the folks that do not read past the first paragraph.

In the interview, Odell was asked why no one complained about Kerry's medals at the time. He said that they did not know Kerry had put himself in for them..they had not seen anything particulary heroic and never suspected. Kerry did not receive the medals until later.

[techweenie]

Originally posted by fintstone
I agree Cam. Thay are playing to the folks that do not read past the first paragraph.

In the interview, Odell was asked why no one complained about Kerry's medals at the time. He said that they did not know Kerry had put himself in for them..they had not seen anything particulary heroic and never suspected. Kerry did not receive the medals until later.

LOL.

Kerry was 'put in' for the medal on April 1, 1969 by George Elliott.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0820041kerry1.html

[fintstone]

Elliot submitted the medal based on a false "after action" report by Kerry according to the other officers...

Why was the citation written and signed in 1986?....or at least the last version.

You consider "the smoking gun" a reliable source?

[techweenie]

I guess you could ask the other two guys who got Bronze stars from the same action whether there was shooting going on. Thurlow thought so... until 35 years later when he whored himself out to the Bushies.

The Smoking Gun is highly reliable, as is spinsanity.com.

[Mulholland]

Originally posted by techweenie
I guess you could ask the other two guys who got Bronze stars from the same action whether there was shooting going on. Thurlow thought so... until 35 years later when he whored himself out to the Bushies.

What is he hiding and why did he lie about attrocities, Cambodia and Nixon?...Why did he throw his medals away and then lie about doing so?...Why did he join an organization who plotted the assassination of sitting Senators?

Why doesn't he just release his full record and be done with it?

Give him a call, tech...Get him to sign the form 180.

Lets be real for a second, shall we tech, you don't like Kerry one bit, you just need to provide cover for him to mask/accomplish your real motivation...hating Bush.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Mulholland

Why doesn't he just release his full record and be done with it?

how about casting an eyeball on his '70s FBI folder ?

I wonder if it's in the Abie Hoffman section ?

[techweenie]

Mul, you can repeat it endlessly, but Kerry's records are on his web site, apparently a difficult mouse click for you.

More records by a factor of 10 than GWB has (because his have somehow 'gone missing').

Atrocities were committed throughout our conflict in Vietnam. People I know committed them and talked about it. Other people committed them and didn't talk about it. If all you know about Vietnam is what you see in Hollywood movies, you should really talk to some vets. BTW, war is hell.

The US had operations in Cambodia before 1970. This is well known to most anyone who looks into it. If Kerry was 5 miles from the Cambodian border, or over it, who cares? At least he was in the theater of operations, not drinking with his buddies back home.

[island911]

Originally posted by Mulholland
What is he hiding and why did he lie about attrocities, Cambodia and Nixon?...Why did he throw his medals away and then lie about doing so?...Why did he join an organization who plotted the assassination of sitting Senators?

Why doesn't he just release his full record and be done with it?

Give him a call, tech...Get him to sign the form 180.

Lets be real for a second, shall we tech, you don't like Kerry one bit, you just need to provide cover for him to mask/accomplish your real motivation...hating Bush.

Excellent post, Mul.

SO how 'bout it tech? Just because Kerry has released MORE paperwork (as you say) hardly means he has released ALL HIS RECORDS.

Dare I say, Mul NAILED your game.

[Moneyguy1]

There are enough "missing records" to keep the mills grinding on both sides.

Get over it. Our economy is not good, another recession may be on the horizon. Who can get us back on track? So far, I have heard nothing from the Bush camp on how to take care of the domestic problems except a patchwork of vague ideas. Same for the Kerry side, although I think the Senator is a bit more fiscally astute.

And here, in our little microcosm, I see written a lot of insults and sarcasms but little in actual platform construct. Could it be that supporters blindly follow the leadership and hope that somehow things will get better? Come on. Give concrete stands from the two camps. Compare them. Have such proposals been tried before? Have they worked? If not, why trot them out again?

I would like to think there is enough intelligence on this BB that could rationally compare and contrast positions without resorting to the insults and sarcasm, both of which are clear indications of no position at all.

To those who try to engage in rational exchange, thanks. To the rest,a pox on all your houses.

[island911]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
There are enough "missing records" to keep the mills grinding on both sides.

Get over it. . ...

Oh, I see. . . these records are "missing" . . that's why Kerry won't release them.

Yeah, I get it. . .you're saying "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. . . .(let me tell you why you should hate bush)"

hmmm. . .what was the next line?. . . maybe. . "get this dog off of me"

So, why doesn't Kerry just sign the release form?

[flyenby]

FAIRLY EASY TO FOOL PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN TO VIETNAM,DURING THE WAR AS COMBAT PERSONNEL. AT THE TIME IT WAS NOT A VERY POPULAR VOCATION, NOW ALOT OF PRETENDERS......

[Moneyguy1]

Island..Read the rest of the post and then comment.

Both sides have yet to "come clean" .

[techweenie]

Originally posted by island911
Excellent post, Mul.

SO how 'bout it tech? Just because Kerry has released MORE paperwork (as you say) hardly means he has released ALL HIS RECORDS.

Dare I say, Mul NAILED your game.

I've never seen Mul nail anyone's game. Half the time, he doesn't even seem to comprehend the quotes he pastes. When I ask him a direct question, he usually responds with a cartoon.

He has never said which records he thinks are missing. I've pointed him to Kerry's web site at least three times, and I see no evidence he's ever done his homework.

What records do you think you need to see? You support a guy who jumped over 150 more qualified applicants to get a highly coveted TANG slot and then failed to maintain his flying status. Who may or may not have shown up for the last year of his duty, whose records are almost nonexistent possibly thanks to people helping hid 'embarrassing' items) and whose awards are completely nonexistent.

But you're anxious to see WHAT records from John Kerry's tour in Vietnam?

And just between us, WTF difference would these so-called 'necessary records' you're so deperate to see prove to you? Will they allow you to vote for Kerry?

[techweenie]

Originally posted by flyenby
FAIRLY EASY TO FOOL PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN TO VIETNAM,DURING THE WAR AS COMBAT PERSONNEL. AT THE TIME IT WAS NOT A VERY POPULAR VOCATION, NOW ALOT OF PRETENDERS......

I'm with ya, man. I stayed stateside, but lost quite a few friends there -- guys I trained with. We got a book in AIT, it was called 'the Vietnam Book' and it had information about tunnels, punji sticks, bouncing bettys... I saw the wind go out of a lot of guys' sails when that book got cracked.