Pentagon 911

[rcecale]

Take a look here for another point of view of what happened at the Pentagon that day.

Debris? Take a look at Picture 13. I'm telling ya, at over 500 MPH at impact, you're not gonna see much else.

(Picture 13)


There was a thread here recently in OT that showed photos of a blue car (I believe it was an Audi) that was wrapped around a tree. Totally unidentifiable, except for maybe a tail-light lense. If I remember correctly, the speedo indicated the car was moving less than 100 MPH. Do the search.

Randy

[MFAFF]

turbo,

Thanks for the reminder, but I didn't overlook it......A 757 loaded at 200 tons even at 500 mph (not knots cos at 0 feet the 757 airframe would have suffered structural damage before it hit....but thats a separate issue.) would cause more fire damage than two fully loaded (400 tonnes each ) 747s contacting at a combined speed of 200 knots (250mph)? I don't know.

Or a fully loaded DC-10 hitting the ground at 250 knots, leaves a trail of debris.

Admittedly the Pentagon aircraft hit very cleanly in that 'little' damage was done before it hit, thankfully and it seems to have hit very 'squarely' the building which means the structure of the building was taking the impact in the most favourable direction, along the shear reinforcemnt of any or all of the walls, as opposed to tangentially.

I'm also not saying it was anything other than the 757 that hit the Pentagon.....
Picutre 13 does seem to discount anything other.

PS Rcecale I've seen the effects of a 500 knot impact, in the craft I once flew in...once impacted on the side of a mountain in Scotland you could still see it what it was....

[fintstone]

I was there and watched it burn...it sure looked like an airplane to me.

[speeder]

Originally posted by fintstone
I was there and watched it burn...it sure looked like an airplane to me.

Were there identifiable parts of the plane, (fuselage, a wing, etc.), before it all incinarated? I was under the impression that it obliterated on impact.

[350HP930]

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm

Its just lot of bunk and insane speculation that helps to distract from the important questions like why was our super dooper military and security infrastructure not able to scramble fighters as soon as it was known that there were multiple hijackings? Perhaps 9/11 would have not been as advantageous for the powers that be if only a couple hundred people were killed instead of thousands.

[fintstone]

Ill be honest, I cannot positively ID it as a plane. I did not see the actual impact...I was underground. The shape of impact looked like a plane at first, (wide with wings) but less so as it burned and the structure collapsed around it. I saw some pieces of what could have been fuselage....but cannot positively ID them as such. I do not know of a missle that would be that big except an ICBM. None of our air lauched cruise missiles are anywhere near that large.

I have done recovery on fighters we have lost. Sometimes they are remarkably intact (swamp in SC)...one that crashed into hard terrain at almost mach, the largest piece that survived was a shiny nickel...that was probably in the pilots pocket. It was near some small bone fragments.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by 350HP930
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm

Its just lot of bunk and insane speculation that helps to distract from the important questions like why was our super dooper military and security infrastructure not able to scramble fighters as soon as it was known that there were multiple hijackings? Perhaps 9/11 would have not been as advantageous for the powers that be if only a couple hundred people were killed instead of thousands.

We have never scrambled for a hijacking. Traditional wisdom was that the hijackers would land somewhere and demand some money or political assylum. No one expected nutcases willing to die and kill many innocents to spread terror.

[ubiquity0]

What about the FBI memo from a few months earlier (I'm pretty sure it was FBI rather than CIA?) that warned of exactly that?

[350HP930]

I think bush and his minions were too busy promoting SDI and a war against iraq to develop any policies to deal with the threat, or so says nearly everybody who has resigned from the administration.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by ubiquity0
What about the FBI memo from a few months earlier (I'm pretty sure it was FBI rather than CIA?) that warned of exactly that?

There are thousands of memos from FBI field offices daily. Very few get to the president...this one didn't even get to the top of the FBI. The FBI agent was actually very wrong in the memo. All the suspects they cited were totally innocent and their observations were almost completely wrong. The only thing they got right was using an airplane...apparently a coincidence. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.

[turbo6bar]

What is the best-case response time for the US military? Can they have fighters scrambled in 30 minutes? 45 minutes? Was it even possible to stop the plane from flying into the Pentagon? I doubt anyone could stop the planes from flying into the WTC.

[350HP930]

Apparantly they had fighters up in minutes that one time that one golfers plane depressurized over the midwest. I guess the midwest needs more protection against a small executive jet that becomes unresponsive than the eastern coast and washington needs against several hijacked airliners.

[fintstone]

It depends on whether they are on alert or not. Alert jets can lift of almost immediately, but still have to cover the distance to the target. I imagine we have alert jets now...like we did back in the days our bombers stood alert. Since in the past, the only need for fighter intercept was to meet a bunch of slow assed bombers coming from Russia (and not across the Atlantic)...there was probably no reason to operate that way prior to 911 and probably little preparation to defend the Atlantic coast. Especially since the Soviet Union had fallen.

[350HP930]

Yeah, who would have imagined that terrorists or militants could use a civilian aircraft to attack a target. I guess the fact that in europe they defended a G7 meeting with anti-aircraft missles long before 9-11 means nothing.

[fintstone]

It is a big difference between defending a meeting in a defined compound and defending a continent. If you want to pay to have fighters in the air where they can repond within 30 minutes to any spot in the continental US....You wuld need one about every 300-500 miles. It is not practical. It would increase your taxes from 20% of your paycheck to 80%...just for defense. Oh wait...didn't you want to cut the defense budget?

[VaSteve]

Look people. I was there.

I saw the plane flying around and heard the impact as far away as Newington VA. It flew straight up I-395 just as in the official story and crashed into the building. If you conspiracy theorists would like to discuss this person, PM me, I will be glad to walk you through it.

http://maps.yahoo.com/dd_result?ed=xTowJeV.wimQQVd6MsEKU7USFw--&csz=newington%2C+va&country=us&tcsz=22202&tcountry=us

No conspiracy.

[jm951]

A friend of mine was on the medical detail assigned to collect the casualties, there were some identifiable plane parts inside the building. The damaga went deep into the building, almost into the inner ring. No conspiracy here, just more whacko speculation from the MM koolaide camp.

350- would you have wanted to be the military commander who might have to order a shoot down of a civilian airliner on 9/11? I thought all you libs were the peace, love and tolerance crowd.

[djmcmath]

Did you see the plane, Steve? 757, as generally held? I don't think anyone here is seriously advocating the conspiracy theory, we're just curious. I think most people have bought off on the empirical data showing that high-speed airplanes dissintegrate on impact.

My boss was in the Pentagon when it happened, coincidentally. She says the strangest thing was getting off work very late, about 3 days later. There were a lot more cars in the parking lot than usual, and she realized that they had been there for a couple of days. Then it occurred to her -- those were the cars of the people who had died. Brings it home in a different way.

Dan

[VaSteve]

Originally posted by djmcmath
Did you see the plane, Steve? 757, as generally held? I don't think anyone here is seriously advocating the conspiracy theory, we're just curious. I think most people have bought off on the empirical data showing that high-speed airplanes dissintegrate on impact.

I'm not very good at identifying planes from the sky or on the ground. It was a big white or silver plane. As I left my office in Newington , it was flying south. It banked left and then right again. We drove to the Ft Belvior golf club because they had a TV. As we got to the parking lot the plane was headed north again (up 395). I assumed it was waiting to land at Reagan National Airport (though the flight pattern is not that direction - I have observed in the intervening 3 years). BY the time we reached the door of the golf club, we heard the impact.

My fiance worked at the Pentagon and was there that day. I had called her on our way out the door to tell her to go home (I had a preminition). She said she couldn't just leave. She was fotunatly on the other side of the building. The people in the building thought that it was some construction accident from the renovation on that side of the building.

In the following year, I watched them tear down the parts of the building damaged. They tore down a lot of the building that wasn't hit directly and rebuilt it all in one year. I used to work there myself. It's a massive structure and was built w/o the benefit of the technology and metal that the WTC was built from. I have no doubt that between the plane and the building, the plane would just desintigrate.

[Moses]

Originally posted by rcecale
Debris? Take a look at Picture 13. I'm telling ya, at over 500 MPH at impact, you're not gonna see much else.

Randy

Looks like a plane to me.